S&W 500 penetration and tumbling questions

[Dirty Smith Harry]

Looking for the deepest penetrating bullet that does not tumble...

I have some questions about hard cast bullets for the S&W 500 4" inch revolver, specifically in regards to deepest penetration and tumbling. Does the S&W 500 4" inch revolver have any problems stabilizing specific hard cast rounds? Is there a sweet spot in grains in weight for penetration before any tumbling occurs? For example, is the 440gr hard cast the upper limit or can you go beyond 500gr before tumbling occurs? I know there are 600gr and 700gr hard cast bullets for that round...

Have any of you noticed differences in penetration with regards to grains bullet weight on test medium or game ?

Both the 500 JRH in 460gr and 480 Ruger in 400gr can penetrate 17 water jugs.

 

[Alk8944]

Whaat are you intending to hunt that you are concerned with penetration with a 500 S&W? The factory ammunition will shoot clear through a Buffalo/American Bison side-to-side, what more do you think you need? Bullet placement should be your only concern on any American big game species!

 

[Dirty Smith Harry]

Whaat are you intending to hunt that you are concerned with penetration with a 500 S&W? The factory ammunition will shoot clear through a Buffalo/American Bison side-to-side, what more do you think you need? Bullet placement should be your only concern on any American big game species!

Thanks for the reply...

I'm planning my first African Cape Buffalo hunt, a little anxiety.

 

[chief38]

I've never owned a S&W 500 Magnum but I have shot at least 300-350 some odd rounds through 4 or 5 of them. I've never seen any evidence of one tumble in the targets we were shooting. I am just curious if this is something you have personally experienced or is this something that you heard or read. I have 4 friends who own one of those revolvers and they have never mentioned this. While with them at the Range I have not seen evidence of tumbling either.

I am not saying this can not happen with certain bullets, but they have only used factory loaded ammo.

 

[Dirty Smith Harry]

I've never owned a S&W 500 Magnum but I have shot at least 300-350 some odd rounds through 4 or 5 of them. I've never seen any evidence of one tumble in the targets we were shooting. I am just curious if this is something you have personally experienced or is this something that you heard or read. I have 4 friends who own one of those revolvers and they have never mentioned this. While with them at the Range I have not seen evidence of tumbling either.

I am not saying this can not happen with certain bullets, but they have only used factory loaded ammo.

I asked my computer's search A.I. about tumbling for the S&W 500 and it responded back with this below...

"The S&W 500 revolver can experience tumbling with certain heavy bullets, particularly those over 500 grains, but many users report that factory ammunition typically does not tumble. It's important to choose the right bullet weight to minimize this risk and ensure effective performance.

Recommendations

• Optimal Bullet Weight: For deep penetration without tumbling, many recommend sticking to bullet weights around 440 to 500 grains."

 

[stu1ritter]

I asked my AI browser about the minimum recommended caliber for African Cape Buffalo........the reply.....

The minimum recommended and often legal gun caliber for hunting African Cape buffalo is the .375 H&H Magnum. Most African countries with hunting regulations list .375 as the minimum allowed caliber for dangerous game like Cape buffalo. Some regions may accept the European 9.3mm (.366-inch) as the minimum, but .375 is standard in South Africa and many other countries with regulated hunting.
While .375 H&H Magnum is the minimum, professional hunters and experts often recommend larger calibers (such as .416 Rigby, .416 Remington Magnum, .404 Jeffery, or .458 Lott) for their increased stopping power, reliability, and effectiveness on a tough and potentially dangerous animal like Cape buffalo. Ultimately, it's important to select the heaviest caliber you can shoot accurately and confidently, as shot placement and reliable bullet performance are crucial.

375H&H = approx 4000 ft lbs muzzle energy
416 Rigby= 4,600 to 5,000 ft. lbs.
416 Remington Magnum = 5,300 ft. lbs.
500S&W Magnum = 2,800 ft lbs.

Isn't that 500 just a tad light for such a big, dangerous critter??

Stu

 

[Tinkertech]

The 500 is for yourself after your double rifle did not do the job!!!!

 

[Dirty Smith Harry]

I asked my AI browser about the minimum recommended caliber for African Cape Buffalo........the reply.....

The minimum recommended and often legal gun caliber for hunting African Cape buffalo is the .375 H&H Magnum. Most African countries with hunting regulations list .375 as the minimum allowed caliber for dangerous game like Cape buffalo. Some regions may accept the European 9.3mm (.366-inch) as the minimum, but .375 is standard in South Africa and many other countries with regulated hunting.
While .375 H&H Magnum is the minimum, professional hunters and experts often recommend larger calibers (such as .416 Rigby, .416 Remington Magnum, .404 Jeffery, or .458 Lott) for their increased stopping power, reliability, and effectiveness on a tough and potentially dangerous animal like Cape buffalo. Ultimately, it's important to select the heaviest caliber you can shoot accurately and confidently, as shot placement and reliable bullet performance are crucial.

375H&H = approx 4000 ft lbs muzzle energy
416 Rigby= 4,600 to 5,000 ft. lbs.
416 Remington Magnum = 5,300 ft. lbs.
500S&W Magnum = 2,800 ft lbs.

Isn't that 500 just a tad light for such a big, dangerous critter??

Stu

People hunt Cape Buffalo with single-action revolvers chambered in 475 Linebaugh, 500 JRH, 500 S&W and 500 Linebaugh...

Handgun Hunting in Africa?

Is there anywhere a fellow can hunt plains game with a scoped handgun. I am thinking an Encore.

www.africahunting.com

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/14042151/bfr-500-jrh

Hunting Gallery — JRH Advanced Gunsmithing

www.jrhadvancedgunsmithing.com

 

[DonD]

When the 500 Mag was first released, a well known gun writer (it's been a very long time, I don't remember his name) shot a Cape Buffalo using factory 440gr ammo. Broke the animals shoulder penetrated the length of the animal and was found just under the skin on the rump.

I've shot water filled gallon milk jugs with one of my 500s. Quite a spectacle, massive gyser, soaking the ground 20' either side of the centerline. Don

 

[ruggyh]

Looking for the deepest penetrating bullet that does not tumble... the S&W 500 4" inch revolver

You should have no problems if you using cast bullets up to 500 grain

The often hyped 700 grain bullets don't stabilize in standard 500s, these were developed by John Ross (no longer with use) for use in the Fast models built to John Ross specification.

Bullet length, not weight, are what cause stability issues.

..., specifically in regards to deepest penetration and tumbling.

Contrary to reloading mythology heavier does not mean deeper penetration.

The point of diminishing returns applies. You will find that point at about 400 grains (for 500 caliber handguns)

You will notice that Hornady is no longer offering 500 HC because it does not offer anything more than lighter offering (except recoil).

With regards to the Cape Buffalo , I personally know That Jack Huntington used a 440HC in his 500 JRH chambered single action revolver both times.

Writer Max Prasac ([Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers[] used a 440 Punch Bullet

Mike Nice use Hornady 500HC out of 500S&W 8.375" barrel.

Plenty of other have used similar bullet selection to take Cape Buffalo.

My son used a 275 Barnes XPB to take an 1800 lb. Bison. out a 500 S&W 5" Fast (John Ross). Bullet was through and through.

Don't know what your really looking for. 500 S&W is a great cartridge for those that can master it.

Kinetic Energy doesn't kill, neither does the cartridge. It is the bullet that does all the work- its bullet construction and shot placement coupled with enough momentum to get to the vitals.

Max's book which demonstrates this. I would recommend it if you want a look in what it takes to hunt with a handgun and all the choices.

 

[Dirty Smith Harry]

You should have no problems if you using cast bullets up to 500 grain

The often hyped 700 grain bullets don't stabilize in standard 500s, these were developed by John Ross (no longer with use) for use in the Fast models built to John Ross specification.

Bullet length, not weight, are what cause stability issues.



Contrary to reloading mythology heavier does not mean deeper penetration.

The point of diminishing returns applies. You will find that point at about 400 grains (for 500 caliber handguns)

You will notice that Hornady is no longer offering 500 HC because it does not offer anything more than lighter offering (except recoil).

With regards to the Cape Buffalo , I personally know That Jack Huntington used a 440HC in his 500 JRH chambered single action revolver both times.

Writer Max Prasac ([Gun Digest Book of Hunting Revolvers[] used a 440 Punch Bullet

Mike Nice use Hornady 500HC out of 500S&W 8.375" barrel.

Plenty of other have used similar bullet selection to take Cape Buffalo.

My son used a 275 Barnes XPB to take an 1800 lb. Bison. out a 500 S&W 5" Fast (John Ross). Bullet was through and through.

Don't know what your really looking for. 500 S&W is a great cartridge for those that can master it.

Kinetic Energy doesn't kill, neither does the cartridge. It is the bullet that does all the work- its bullet construction and shot placement coupled with enough momentum to get to the vitals.

Max's book which demonstrates this. I would recommend it if you want a look in what it takes to hunt with a handgun and all the choices.



View attachment 788290

Thanks for the reply and info, very informative...

For the 480 Ruger/475 Linebaugh does the same apply with bullet weight ? I saw an interesting video by YouTuber plowboysghost who tests handgun ammo and his results below...

480 Ruger 400gr hard cast penetrated 17 water jugs...


500 JRH 460gr hard cast penetrated 17 water jugs...


Both penetrated 17 water jugs...

Aria Ballistic Engineering has a 480 Ruger in 430gr hard cast. I wonder how much that would penetrate? I've thought about a Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan in 480 Ruger instead of the S&W 500 since it's smaller and lighter and the 480 Ruger hard cast can hold it's own in penetration against a 500 JRH. But, water jugs are not cape buffalo or brown bears. I wonder what the effects would be on the animal in stopping power between the two?

 

[phil2707]

When the 500 Mag was first released, a well known gun writer (it's been a very long time, I don't remember his name) shot a Cape Buffalo using factory 440gr ammo. Broke the animals shoulder penetrated the length of the animal and was found just under the skin on the rump.

I've shot water filled gallon milk jugs with one of my 500s. Quite a spectacle, massive gyser, soaking the ground 20' either side of the centerline. Don

 

[ruggyh]

Dirty Smith Harry

You still have not said what you are trying to solution/figure out.

The testing and testing methods used in these videos have little real scientific value- watch them as entertainment.

You should be comparing permanent wound channel performance of the bullet/caliber you are interested.

Any of the big bore handgun calibers (44,45, 475, 50) is capable of adequate penetration to handle most everything walking the planet save elephants and even them in a few cases.

Penetration is a function of nose design and momentum faced against total resistance impeding momentum.

Bullet shape, weight, and velocity are the primary components to consider. It should be be noted that velocity is constrained by cartridge powder capacity and design pressure.

It does not mater the caliber or cartridge, there is a point of diminishing returns for booth velocity and weight,
In other words adding more weight is not going to add any more penetration depth.

For 45 caliber like Colt, Casuall, and 460 S&W Mag it around 340 grains
For 50 caliber it is around 400 grains

475 will fall in between the 45 and 500

The bullets nose shape effects both penetration and wound channel size, they are opposed design considerations for handgun cartridges. More meplat creates larger wound channel but reduces penetration.

The hard cast (HC) community advocates for meplat of 85% of the caliber, and while this impeds penetration there is typically enough momentum for the bullet to exit with these large bore cartridges.

The problem with HC is it can have issues when heavy bones are encountered- deforming the bullet shape (increases resistance) or fragmenting.

While hard cast is cheap and works, modern monolithic designs offer improved permanent wound channel size and better durability and typically..

As to stopping power- another myth- larger caliber coupled with their heavier weight produced a more noticeable reaction by the animal being shoot. Only a CNS shoot will produce an instant stop and they require a precise bullet placement to achieve.

Go out shoot the guns your interested in, then work to build a combination specific for the job you are trying to get done.

The is no such thing as best here- If you shoot long enough you end up owning multipul caliber and cartridge chambered revolvers, it comes down to preference.

Personally I prefer to hunt with 460 S&W but have/shoot 500 S&W, 500 JRH, 45 LC, in a number of handgun brands, S&W, BFR, Ruger, Janz, Freedom Arms.

Taken with 460 S&W Mag using hand loaded 260 grain Northfork Technoliges CPS Bullet.
Several rounds penetrated through the shoulder , in one side out the other breaking both shoulders.

 

[Dirty Smith Harry]

Dirty Smith Harry

You still have not said what you are trying to solution/figure out.

The testing and testing methods used in these videos have little real scientific value- watch them as entertainment.

You should be comparing permanent wound channel performance of the bullet/caliber you are interested.

Any of the big bore handgun calibers (44,45, 475, 50) is capable of adequate penetration to handle most everything walking the planet save elephants and even them in a few cases.

Penetration is a function of nose design and momentum faced against total resistance impeding momentum.

Bullet shape, weight, and velocity are the primary components to consider. It should be be noted that velocity is constrained by cartridge powder capacity and design pressure.

It does not mater the caliber or cartridge, there is a point of diminishing returns for booth velocity and weight,
In other words adding more weight is not going to add any more penetration depth.

For 45 caliber like Colt, Casuall, and 460 S&W Mag it around 340 grains
For 50 caliber it is around 400 grains

475 will fall in between the 45 and 500

The bullets nose shape effects both penetration and wound channel size, they are opposed design considerations for handgun cartridges. More meplat creates larger wound channel but reduces penetration.

The hard cast (HC) community advocates for meplat of 85% of the caliber, and while this impeds penetration there is typically enough momentum for the bullet to exit with these large bore cartridges.

The problem with HC is it can have issues when heavy bones are encountered- deforming the bullet shape (increases resistance) or fragmenting.

While hard cast is cheap and works, modern monolithic designs offer improved permanent wound channel size and better durability and typically..

As to stopping power- another myth- larger caliber coupled with their heavier weight produced a more noticeable reaction by the animal being shoot. Only a CNS shoot will produce an instant stop and they require a precise bullet placement to achieve.

Go out shoot the guns your interested in, then work to build a combination specific for the job you are trying to get done.

The is no such thing as best here- If you shoot long enough you end up owning multipul caliber and cartridge chambered revolvers, it comes down to preference.

Personally I prefer to hunt with 460 S&W but have/shoot 500 S&W, 500 JRH, 45 LC, in a number of handgun brands, S&W, BFR, Ruger, Janz, Freedom Arms.

Taken with 460 S&W Mag using hand loaded 260 grain Northfork Technoliges CPS Bullet.
Several rounds penetrated through the shoulder , in one side out the other breaking both shoulders.
View attachment 788589

Do you have any preference on hard cast LFN vs WFN bullets? Have you noticed any difference between the two in penetration and wound path destruction if both bullets are of the same caliber, weight and velocity ?

 

[ferider]

Interesting thread.

Don't trust AI. It tends to randomly quote stuff. An example I came across the other day: