Another LEOSA qualification…

[Riposte1]

Did you have yard prone?

No but our longest range was 25 yards and we allowed anyone to use the position they wanted and allowed 6 seconds to fire four rounds. A lot of guys did use kneeling.

I doubt they kept the course after I retired, in fact, even though it is required by law to qualify at least once each year, I sort of doubt if they qualify twice a year like I had them do.

Riposte.

 

[KWW]

California only issues a retired ID card that allows concealed carry for five years, and then the card has to be renewed with the agency to be able to carry under the California Penal Code. Some agencies issue two cards, one for five years for instate carry, and one for one year to comply with LEOSA.

Hope this helps.

Fred

My former California agency issues one card, which is renewed annually and states on the card "CCW/HR 218 Approved." It also has a statement on the rear of the card stating it requires annual qualifications pursuant to 18 USC 926C. I don't know of any 5-year card issued in California. Doesn't mean I doubt it's existence, just unaware of it.

 

[Exchipy]

Concerning retired officer qualification, the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act currently says, at 18 USC 926C (c) (4):

"[D]uring the most recent 12-month period, [the otherwise qualified former law enforcement officer] has met, at the expense of the individual, the standards for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State[.]"

It says nothing more and nothing less. So, nothing else is necessary: not training courses, not background checks, no demonstration of extraordinary skills, no minimum physical fitness requirements, but also no special courses of fire, made easier to allow for advanced decrepitude. It is only required that the individual has successfully completed any course of fire which is approved for the qualification of active law enforcement officers within the State of residence.

 

[KWW]

Concerning retired officer qualification, the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act currently says, at 18 USC 926C (c) (4):

"[D]uring the most recent 12-month period, [the otherwise qualified former law enforcement officer] has met, at the expense of the individual, the standards for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State[.]"

It says nothing more and nothing less. So, nothing else is necessary: not training courses, not background checks, no demonstration of extraordinary skills, no minimum physical fitness requirements, but also no special courses of fire, made easier to allow for advanced decrepitude. It is only required that the individual has successfully completed any course of fire which is approved for the qualification of active law enforcement officers within the State of residence.

Sounds right. Our course of fire for retirees is pretty basic and simple.

 

[Blackthorn]

For what it's worth, here is Vermont's course of fire for LEOSA "Off Duty and Retired". This is mandated by the state's training and standards council. They record the model and serial number of the gun(s) that you qualify on. I choose to qualify on two, a sub-compact HK VP9SK (for summer carry) and a regular frame HK VP9 (for the rest of the year.)

A B-27 target (or similar) is used. Hits qualify if the are inside if the torso (arms don't count) or the head.

Observant readers will note that this is 25 rounds total, with the strings being 2, 3, and 5 rounds. Presumably, this is to allow for 5-rnd. revolvers, although no one has specifically told me that's the reason. Reloads are required at the 3, 5, and 7 yd. positions.

Edit: The attached image didn't show, so here is a table of the course of fire.

LEOSA qualification distances: 3, 5, 7, 10, 15 yds.

Distance Yds. (Ft.)​	Positions	Rounds Fired​	String
3 (9')​	Standing	2​	Point shooting; Strong hand only; One step to left or right
3 (9')​	Standing	3​	Point shooting; Strong hand only; One step to left or right
5 (15')​	Standing	3​	Strong hand only
5 (15')​	Standing	2​	Support hand only
7 (21')​	Standing or kneeling	2​	Behind Cover
7 (21')​	Standing or kneeling	3​	Behind Cover; Reload (Behind cover; "under fire")
10 (30')​	Standing or kneeling	5​	Reload
15 (45')​	Standing or kneeling	5​	Clear Weapon; Holster an empty weapon

 

[wileyjackhammer]

For what it's worth, here is Vermont's course of fire for LEOSA "Off Duty and Retired". This is mandated by the state's training and standards council. They record the model and serial number of the gun(s) that you qualify on. I choose to qualify on two, a sub-compact HK VP9SK (for summer carry) and a regular frame HK VP9 (for the rest of the year.)

A B-27 target (or similar) is used. Hits qualify if the are inside if the torso (arms don't count) or the head.

Observant readers will note that this is 25 rounds total, with the strings being 2, 3, and 5 rounds. Presumably, this is to allow for 5-rnd. revolvers, although no one has specifically told me that's the reason. Reloads are required at the 3, 5, and 7 yd. positions.

Edit: The attached image didn't show, so here is a table of the course of fire.

LEOSA qualification distances: 3, 5, 7, 10, 15 yds.

Distance Yds. (Ft.)​	Positions	Rounds Fired​	String
3 (9')​	Standing	2​	Point shooting; Strong hand only; One step to left or right
3 (9')​	Standing	3​	Point shooting; Strong hand only; One step to left or right
5 (15')​	Standing	3​	Strong hand only
5 (15')​	Standing	2​	Support hand only
7 (21')​	Standing or kneeling	2​	Behind Cover
7 (21')​	Standing or kneeling	3​	Behind Cover; Reload (Behind cover; "under fire")
10 (30')​	Standing or kneeling	5​	Reload
15 (45')​	Standing or kneeling	5​	Clear Weapon; Holster an empty weapon

The LEOSA Quals for retirees at Pierce County Sheriff's Office Tacoma, WA
I hope you can open the attachment.
3 yards....... draw & fire 2 rd Head / 2 rds body 7 seconds
5 yards....... Draw & fire 3 rds strong hand only to body 5 seconds
5 yards....... Ready position fire 3 rds support hand only 7 seconds
7 yards....... Ready position fire 5 rds to body 9 seconds
10 yards..... Ready position fire 5 rds to body 12 seconds
15 yards..... Ready position fire 5 rds to body 12 seconds
Total 25 rds 70% Min score B-27 style target
All particulars on attachment

 

[geeollie]

The Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center, just began issuing a card that shows the participant qualified with a handgun.
In the years before this it showed that you qualified with a semi or with a revolver. 2 cards were needed if you carried both.

I know that some on this forum have mentioned that their state of residency also does this. I'm glad for the change.

 

[Recargador]

Here's the AZ LEOSA course of fire:

 

[dirtbroke]

My entrance level police academy back in 1982 was taught firearms training by an FBI firearms instructor. Our course of fire included 6 rounds, prone position at 50 yards. The majority of the time I actually could hit the target.

 

[dirtbroke]

The Kansas Law Enforcement Training Center, just began issuing a card that shows the participant qualified with a handgun.
In the years before this it showed that you qualified with a semi or with a revolver. 2 cards were needed if you carried both.

I know that some on this forum have mentioned that their state of residency also does this. I'm glad for the change.

When I first shot for LEOSA qualification some 11 years ago, we had to qualify on the actual firearm we were going to carry and with both revolver and auto, if desired.
However, our county sheriff's office sought information from a federal prosecutor. Based on that information, that qualifications under LEOSA are only broke down into 3 groups. These are rifle, shotgun and handgun. So now qualification on a pistol qualifies you to carry any handgun. So on our LEOSA card it reads: " In compliance with the Law Enforcement Officer's Safety Act of 2004 this identification card certifies that the retired deputy/officer listed above has qualified with a handgun. The course of fire and training are MPCTC (Maryland Police And Correctional Training Commission) compliant."
The best part is that they do the training for free. So many retirees show up from other areas outside the county, that they now break it down into 3 days of qualifications.

 

[ultra45]

North Carolina requires retirees to shoot the same course as all other officers. There are numerous courses that are approved, but most shoot the BLET (Basic Law Enforcement Training) course. Daytime out to 25 yards and dim light out to 15. Daytime course requires prone at 25 yards and kneeling at several distances less than 25. The dim light course requires kneeling also.

We also have to qualify with each individual weapon a retiree wants to carry by serial number (same as for full time LEO's). The qualification is good for 365 days from date of qualification. The full time requirements are one day and one dim light qualification with each weapon by serial number within the calendar year. Given this, a person can qualify on January 1 this year and be "good" (i.e. qualified) until December 31 of the next year, effectively one qualification in two years (minus one day).

NC also requires the same qualification for handguns regardless of the size, i.e. no special course for backup/undercover weapons.

It's nice that NC has a procedure in place for the LEOSA qual for retirees, but it DOESN'T follow the LEOSA standard, as defined in US926B. Once you qualify with a semi auto or revolver you may then carry ANY semi auto or revolver.

Again, they, NC, can say or do as they please, but at the end of the day it's Federal Law that's the RULE in this case.

 

[Palmetto Sharpshooter]

I retired four years ago. @The Big D congrats on being retired so long. I'm getting to the point now where it doesn't even seem real that I worked 40+ years as a LEO.

As for LEOSA, it's becoming difficult to get someone to do it. Hopefully it's different for y'all but around here the attitude seems to be, "when you're gone, you're gone." They just forget about you.

 

[Exchipy]

Sounds right. Our course of fire for retirees is pretty basic and simple.

If that course of fire is not "for qualification in firearms training for active law enforcement officers, as determined by the former agency of the individual, the State in which the individual resides or, if the State has not established such standards, either a law enforcement agency within the State in which the individual resides or the standards used by a certified firearms instructor that is qualified to conduct a firearms qualification test for active duty officers within that State," it does not meet LEOSA requirements. There is no provision in LEOSA permitting any departure from those requirements, not even for a "very good reason."

 

[thebolt]

My former agency has the same course for retired qualification as the hold for their off duty carry guns of active officers. It requires shooting at various distances and concludes with 6 rounds at the 25 yard line. I shot 92% this year but it's not an easy course for the retired shooters.

 

[Reloader Fred]

My former California agency issues one card, which is renewed annually and states on the card "CCW/HR 218 Approved." It also has a statement on the rear of the card stating it requires annual qualifications pursuant to 18 USC 926C. I don't know of any 5-year card issued in California. Doesn't mean I doubt it's existence, just unaware of it.

My former department in Central California offers the choice of the one year HR-218 card (yeah, I still call it that, since it's less cumbersome to quote) or the five year "California only" card. I have both, but my current HR-218 is issued in Oregon, where I reside, plus an old one from the department. There were never any real guidelines provided in the Federal law concerning the actual course of fire, or the issuance of cards, other than the annual qualification requirement. We've never recorded serial numbers or noted the type of firearm on the card or in our records, as neither was required under the law. My old department does record those, since it's Commiefornia law that CCW's only allow certain firearms to be carried, so they applied that to the HR-218 cards as well. We have the local PD keep a record of the qualifications in a stand alone computer system, and if there is ever a question as to whether a retiree has actually qualified, they can call the PD 24 hours a day for verification of the date of qualification. The only time they've ever received a call was when a retiree lost an expensive leather jacket in another state and his HR-218 card was in the pocket. Someone called the PD to get the information so they could return the jacket to it's owner, which they did.

I've been retired for over 30 years now and I've been conducting these qualifications since December, 2004. We've never been questioned on our qualifications, but our course of fire is one approved by the Oregon DPSST, with the exception of the time constraints. Most of the retirees make the times anyway, but we see no need to add to the stress for someone who has been off the job for a long time, and will only use their firearm to protect themselves or their family.

Hope this helps.

Fred

 

[WCCPHD]

It's nice that NC has a procedure in place for the LEOSA qual for retirees, but it DOESN'T follow the LEOSA standard, as defined in US926B. Once you qualify with a semi auto or revolver you may then carry ANY semi auto or revolver.

Again, they, NC, can say or do as they please, but at the end of the day it's Federal Law that's the RULE in this case.

While I may not agree with the "rules," a state is free to set standards for LEOSA for retired LEO's. The following is taken directly from HR 218 (LEOSA)

(5) during the most recent l2-month period,has met, at the expense of the individual, the State's standards for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry firearms;

(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual
is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the standards established by the agency for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.

(NOTE: The agency can set its own standards for qualification as long as it is more stringent that the established state standards, not less stringent).

(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides that indicates that the individual has,not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State to meet the standards established by the State for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm

North Carolina has chosen to set standards for active law enforcement officers which include qualification, day and night, with EACH weapon s/he carries (by serial number) and has completed a day and night combat course (defined as a moving and decision making course) and has completed a minimum of four hours of firearms training (classroom and range) annually.

The standard for retired LEO's under LEOSA are the same as for current LEO's, except that a retired officer must have an additional two hours of classroom training annually:

The following is taken from NC's rules:

In addition to the standards set out in Rules 9E .0105 and .0106, each qualified retired law enforcement officer shall also receive a minimum of two (2) hours of instruction on the North Carolina laws of self defense and the use
of force by private citizens, detention of persons by private persons, and assistance to law enforcement officers by private persons.

(c) Qualified retired law enforcement officers shall qualify with each handgun that will be carried concealed at least once every 12 months. For the purpose of this rule, handgun shall include semi-automatic pistols or
revolvers.

 

[Doug M.]

The course of fire described by WileyJackhammer is the state course I described earlier.

I CHOOSE to use at least 2 different formats (revolver and at least a striker fired auto) to show to myself and anyone who needs to look at the card that I can. Far too many active officers and prosecutors/government civil attorneys do not know enough and I want to make sure my credentials protect me from that ignorance.

 

[ultra45]

While I may not agree with the "rules," a state is free to set standards for LEOSA for retired LEO's. The following is taken directly from HR 218 (LEOSA)

(5) during the most recent l2-month period,has met, at the expense of the individual, the State's standards for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry firearms;

(1) a photographic identification issued by the agency from which the individual retired from service as a law enforcement officer that indicates that the individual has, not less recently than one year before the date the individual
is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the agency to meet the standards established by the agency for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm.

(NOTE: The agency can set its own standards for qualification as long as it is more stringent that the established state standards, not less stringent).

(B) a certification issued by the State in which the individual resides that indicates that the individual has,not less recently than one year before the date the individual is carrying the concealed firearm, been tested or otherwise found by the State to meet the standards established by the State for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers to carry a firearm of the same type as the concealed firearm

North Carolina has chosen to set standards for active law enforcement officers which include qualification, day and night, with EACH weapon s/he carries (by serial number) and has completed a day and night combat course (defined as a moving and decision making course) and has completed a minimum of four hours of firearms training (classroom and range) annually.

The standard for retired LEO's under LEOSA are the same as for current LEO's, except that a retired officer must have an additional two hours of classroom training annually:

The following is taken from NC's rules:

In addition to the standards set out in Rules 9E .0105 and .0106, each qualified retired law enforcement officer shall also receive a minimum of two (2) hours of instruction on the North Carolina laws of self defense and the use
of force by private citizens, detention of persons by private persons, and assistance to law enforcement officers by private persons.

(c) Qualified retired law enforcement officers shall qualify with each handgun that will be carried concealed at least once every 12 months. For the purpose of this rule, handgun shall include semi-automatic pistols or
revolvers.

Agreed, however NC's rules as to course of fire are fine, but the LEOSA standard for firearms to be used is broad, semi auto or revolver, no restricted firearms like machine guns. The fact NC is trying to mandate the firearm and record serial numbers is frankly out of their purview.

PA requires the instructor to list the particular semi auto or revolver you Qual with, but once qualified you are good to go with any semi auto or revolver. They also do not take serial numbers. Yesterday I shot my Les Baer TRS and S&W 66. Today I carried a Bodyguard 2.0. NC and PA at least have a program in place unlike NYS which has yet to see DCJS endorse a state standard. As I always say, the LEOSA is ambiguous, but in our (retirees) favor.

 

[WCCPHD]

Agreed, however NC's rules as to course of fire are fine, but the LEOSA standard for firearms to be used is broad, semi auto or revolver, no restricted firearms like machine guns. The fact NC is trying to mandate the firearm and record serial numbers is frankly out of their purview.

PA requires the instructor to list the particular semi auto or revolver you Qual with, but once qualified you are good to go with any semi auto or revolver. They also do not take serial numbers. Yesterday I shot my Les Baer TRS and S&W 66. Today I carried a Bodyguard 2.0. NC and PA at least have a program in place unlike NYS which has yet to see DCJS endorse a state standard. As I always say, the LEOSA is ambiguous, but in our (retirees) favor.

Why is it out of their purview?

The Federal Statute says the individual (retired officer) must meet the "State's Standards for training and qualification for active law enforcement officers."

If the State requires an active LEO to qualify with each weapon (by serial number) they carry by the Federal Statute and then requires the retired LEO to meet State Standards for active LEO's then retired LEO's (in that state) have to qualify with each weapon by serial number.

Not saying that I agree with it, but NC (and others) are well within the Federal Law to set their own standards, and they have.

The person that wrote the NC statute (for the NC General Assembly) and NC DOJ's Administrative Rules is a friend of mine. Before he retired he was a Special Deputy Attorney General who oversaw all LE standards and training. He was/is a certified firearms instructor and currently teaches LEOSA classes and presides over qualification sessions. He may or may not have agreed with what he wrote (he worked for several anti-gun, anti-LEO Attorneys General) but he certainly knows the law, both state and federal (He was a Judge Advocate General in the military and an O-6) and what he wrote follows the letter of the law.

Some states choose to allow officers to qualify with one gun and call it good for all such guns. Some states have a different qualification course of fire for retirees than for active duty LEO's. NC chose to make it the same (with additional classroom training for retirees) for active duty and retirees.

 

[Recargador]

My former department in Central California offers the choice of the one year HR-218 card (yeah, I still call it that, since it's less cumbersome to quote) or the five year "California only" card. I have both, but my current HR-218 is issued in Oregon, where I reside, plus an old one from the department. There were never any real guidelines provided in the Federal law concerning the actual course of fire, or the issuance of cards, other than the annual qualification requirement. We've never recorded serial numbers or noted the type of firearm on the card or in our records, as neither was required under the law. My old department does record those, since it's Commiefornia law that CCW's only allow certain firearms to be carried, so they applied that to the HR-218 cards as well. We have the local PD keep a record of the qualifications in a stand alone computer system, and if there is ever a question as to whether a retiree has actually qualified, they can call the PD 24 hours a day for verification of the date of qualification. The only time they've ever received a call was when a retiree lost an expensive leather jacket in another state and his HR-218 card was in the pocket. Someone called the PD to get the information so they could return the jacket to it's owner, which they did.

I've been retired for over 30 years now and I've been conducting these qualifications since December, 2004. We've never been questioned on our qualifications, but our course of fire is one approved by the Oregon DPSST, with the exception of the time constraints. Most of the retirees make the times anyway, but we see no need to add to the stress for someone who has been off the job for a long time, and will only use their firearm to protect themselves or their family.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Hi Fred. How would a "5 year" card work for carrying outside of California? Federal law dictate the LEOSA qualification card is good for only one year.
Maybe it's only good, as you mentioned, in California?