The Little Bighorn...

cmort666 said:

But are those pre or post-mortem injuries?

Indians were well known for mutilating remains.

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Certainly worth considering. It's been a while since I read the archaeological report. I should think a bop on the head with a war club wouldn't normally obliterate an already present bullet hole.

For anyone interested in the details, the report is still available as a book and for Kindle: "Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn", by Doug Scott et.al. The author of the book linked by catl1835 above was one of the archaeologists and co-authors on this report. It's not exactly light beach reading, but you'll find charts of every bullet of every obscure caliber and gun identified and if possible identified as used by whom, for example. Of course, a lot of stuff was collected from the field since the battle, but they still found enough so that just the ratios, like number of carbine versus revolver bullets found, are meaningful and allow conclusions.

I read that Custer gave orders that, if his wife was in danger of being
captured by Indians while travelling in the West with cavalry escorts,
the escorts were to shoot her rather than allow her to fall in to the
Indians hands.

Absalom said:

Certainly worth considering. It's been a while since I read the archaeological report. I should think a bop on the head with a war club wouldn't normally obliterate an already present bullet hole.

For anyone interested in the details, the report is still available as a book and for Kindle: "Archaeological Perspectives on the Battle of the Little Bighorn", by Doug Scott et.al. The author of the book linked by catl1835 above was one of the archaeologists and co-authors on this report. It's not exactly light beach reading, but you'll find charts of every bullet of every obscure caliber and gun identified and if possible identified as used by whom, for example. Of course, a lot of stuff was collected from the field since the battle, but they still found enough so that just the ratios, like number of carbine versus revolver bullets found, are meaningful and allow conclusions.

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I remember seeing a documentary on TV where archaelogists combed the battlefield charting the type and location of every cartridge case they found, and analyzing the firing pin/hammer strikes to see in what kind of firearm they were fired.

They came up with a very interesting picture of the battle and how it progressed in time and space. While I don't think they accounted for subsequent deposition of cases in non-combat situations (hunting, etc.), I still think it was a valuable exercise, and as I recall, it challenged some established notions both of the course of the battle and how well the Indians were armed.

While they had an amazing variety of firearms, they apparently had a LOT more Spencer, Henry and Winchester rifles than they were originally credited with.

I don't know who Custer THOUGHT he was going to come up against at the Little Bighorn, but it definitely wasn't the force he actually encountered. To me he made the same sort of miscalculation as the Japanese at the Lunga River on Guadalcanal... with similar results.

I have driven buy there many times and never stopped.

cmort666 said:

I remember seeing a documentary on TV where archaelogists combed the battlefield charting the type and location of every cartridge case they found, and analyzing the firing pin/hammer strikes to see in what kind of firearm they were fired.

They came up with a very interesting picture of the battle and how it progressed in time and space. While I don't think they accounted for subsequent deposition of cases in non-combat situations (hunting, etc.), I still think it was a valuable exercise, and as I recall, it challenged some established notions both of the course of the battle and how well the Indians were armed.

While they had an amazing variety of firearms, they apparently had a LOT more Spencer, Henry and Winchester rifles than they were originally credited with.

I don't know who Custer THOUGHT he was going to come up against at the Little Bighorn, but it definitely wasn't the force he actually encountered. To me he made the same sort of miscalculation as the Japanese at the Lunga River on Guadalcanal... with similar results.

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I am a professional appraiser and had the pleasure of appraising a Springfield 45-70 carbine that purportedly had been retrieved from the Little Big Horn battlefield.
The stock was a replacement and that may have explained why it was recovered. Perhaps the trooper who carried it decided to destroy it so it wouldn't fall into Indian hands. All of the complete and operable weapons left on the battlefield were recovered by the Indians and that may be the reason this one was not.
Be that as it may ;this carbine fell into the known range of examples that were issued to Custer's troops. Additionally ; It had the initials of one of the troopers tapped into the buttplate. Other then these two points there wasn't much to go on.
However; A great many 45-70 casings have been recovered from the battlefield over the years and are available for study. It should also be noted that many were picked up by visitors as souvenirs as well. For a fee(it's substantial) a carbine such as this one can be sent to the battlefied group for study just as would be done with a firearm from a crime scene today. They will fire one or two test shots from the shipped example and compare the empties with the examples they have on file. Matches have been made in this manner on some occasions. But Note: That many empties were picked up over the years by tourists so "no match" isn't a definitive conclusion.
I don't know if this was ever done with the example I appraised but I had encouraged the owners to do so. If a match is obtained the value goes up considerably as is to be expected.
Jim

The Lakota, Cheyenne, and Arapaho know this event as the Battle of the Greasy Grass, the indigenous name of the Little Bighorn River.

Rounds fired by the Indians outnumbered those fired by the troops 13 to one.

Those guys on the hill underwent a hailstorm of .44 Henry bullets.

The troops never had anything to shoot at as the Indians popped up, fired, and dropped back out of sight.

cmort666 said:

I remember seeing a documentary on TV where archaelogists combed the battlefield charting the type and location of every cartridge case they found, and analyzing the firing pin/hammer strikes to see in what kind of firearm they were fired.

They came up with a very interesting picture of the battle and how it progressed in time and space. While I don't think they accounted for subsequent deposition of cases in non-combat situations (hunting, etc.), I still think it was a valuable exercise, and as I recall, it challenged some established notions both of the course of the battle and how well the Indians were armed.

While they had an amazing variety of firearms, they apparently had a LOT more Spencer, Henry and Winchester rifles than they were originally credited with.

I don't know who Custer THOUGHT he was going to come up against at the Little Bighorn, but it definitely wasn't the force he actually encountered. To me he made the same sort of miscalculation as the Japanese at the Lunga River on Guadalcanal... with similar results.

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There have been several "excavations" at the Little Big Horn
site. Most times after a big wildfire blows thru and burns
all the grasses away.
And each time the Park Service folks will make new finds,
(a gun, cartridges, bullets, etc..) after combing the site with
the latest technology. There's still guns out there not found yet.


Chuck

Iggy said:

......
The troops never had anything to shoot at as the Indians popped up, fired, and dropped back out of sight.

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And a lot of them probably were incapacitated by indirect arrow hits raining down on them, from Indians who didn't even need to pop up.

That's where most of the old movies and classic paintings create the wrong impression, of whooping warriors riding around Custer's command getting shot from their horses. Most warriors made their way up Custer hill on foot; and Indian losses were likely rather low.

That's one of the numbers disparities I remember from the dig report: in terms of .45 government bullets, dug-up carbine bullets outnumbered revolver bullets something like 10 to 1. Very few soldiers ever got around to firing their handguns at the enemy.

Not to brag but...
How many of you guys ever been up on the Crows Nest?
Where Custer's scouts spotted the "encampment" from a long ways
off?
I was fortunate enough to with my hunting buddy back in mid 90's


Me many moons ago at the marker up on top of the hill.
I drove my 4 wheel drive Chevy all the way to the top.
If you enlarge you can read it.


An interesting marker the brothers showed us just down the hill
from the Crows Nest on the trail towards the encampment.
Brass about 12" across mounted in cement right on the ground.
Reads----General George A, Custer and the 7th Cav.
crossed the divide at this point June 25th ??? (can't read it
and can't remember) 1876.


Top pix is myself and the two brothers (ranchers that we met and offered
to show us how to find it). The brothers were both in their 80's and
lived together on the same ranch. Neither ever married.
Bottom pix. is my buddy Bob and one of the brothers.
These two pixs are us standing where the best view was towards
the battlefield. Gave me chills. So i had a cold beer or two up
there and on the ride back out.

We had been on a P-dog shooting trip on the Rosebud in S.Central
South Dakota and the weather was unbearably hot.
As we sat in the shade of our truck sitting on a hot dry prairie
i looked over at Bob and said, lets go. There's no dogs out cause
it's too darn hot. We loaded up our guns and shooting benches
and took off for the Battlefield.
My buddy had been reading about the Battle and some cool
locations to try and visit. we decided we'd try to get to the
Crows Nest. Got to the area it supposed to be and darned if we
didn't see one of the brothers on a tractor pulling into his barn.
We pulled in and introduced ourselves and they made us feel
right at home. We all stood around and had a cold one or two after
offering our cooler contents to the guys. They were very nice and
said they had been living on that ranch their whole lives.
We explained to them we were trying to find the Crows Nest and
Bill the older brother chimed in that, "heck we been up there many
times". The rub is, it's on private property....... but we know who
owns it and they don't mind if you run up there if we sent ya'.
He then began to instruct us on how far down this dirt trail and
veer left here, and hit this switchback here...etc
when i chimed in....why don't you fellas just hop in the truck and
guide us up there. We will supply all the beer and lets just take
a run up there. Bill and Bob agreed and we loaded up into my
truck and off we went. After about 7 miles of off-roading Bill
pointed to a Hill/Ridge that was to our left. He pointed me to
the trail and after 10 minutes or so of straddling some deep
cuts in the trail going up, we made it to the top.
We relaxed and took photos and had a beer, right up on the actual
Crows Nest on a hot afternoon with two guys we had met an hour
ago.
I'll never forget that day.

Chuck

Visited the site back in 2007 while on a road trip with my spouse. Moving experience for sure. Exposed and outnumbered as Custer's unit was, its no wonder it was all over so quickly.

Absalom said:

And a lot of them probably were incapacitated by indirect arrow hits raining down on them, from Indians who didn't even need to pop up.

That's where most of the old movies and classic paintings create the wrong impression, of whooping warriors riding around Custer's command getting shot from their horses. Most warriors made their way up Custer hill on foot; and Indian losses were likely rather low.

That's one of the numbers disparities I remember from the dig report: in terms of .45 government bullets, dug-up carbine bullets outnumbered revolver bullets something like 10 to 1. Very few soldiers ever got around to firing their handguns at the enemy.

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Some accounts of the battle from Joe Sills Jr. who passed
in 2003
At noon on June 22, the 7th Cavalry proceeded up the Rosebud about 12 miles. While at the Yellowstone, Custer had abolished the wing/battalion assignments for reasons unknown, informing Reno that command assignments would be made on the march. That evening, Custer told his assembled officers that he expected they might face a warrior force of up to 1500, and if he got on their trail he would pursue, even if beyond the fifteen days for which they were rationed. The regimental supplies were carried by a make-shift mule train of twelve mules per company with some additional animals to transport headquarters and miscellaneous equipment. Twelve mules each carried two 1000-round ammunition boxes, or 2000 rounds per company. Each soldier was armed with the single-shot, .45 caliber, Model 1873 Springfield carbine, and was ordered to carry 100 rounds of 45-55 carbine ammunition of which fifty rounds was to be on his person. The troopers also carried the Model 1873 Colt .45 caliber, single-action revolver with twenty-four rounds of ammunition. Despite artwork to the contrary, no sabres were carried after the expedition left the Powder River camp. It further appears from recent archeological surveys that some of the soldiers may have carried weapons other than those mentioned, and that some men and officers had “personal” weapons with them.

On June 23, the regiment marched about thirty-three miles and camped about 5 p.m. Saturday, June 24, found the regiment on the march by 5 a.m. Indian campsites were passed and examined and, after a march of some 28 miles, the command went into camp. That evening Custer called First Lieutenant Charles A. Varnum to him and stated that the Crow scouts believed the Sioux were in the Little Big Horn valley. Custer wanted someone to accompany the Crows scouts to a spot, later to become famous as the “Crow’s Nest,” from which the scouts said they could see the Sioux and Northern Cheyenne camp fires when started in the early morning. Custer wanted a messenger to be sent back with information as soon as possible. Varnum was to leave about 9 p.m. and Custer would follow with the regiment at 11 p.m. and thought he could be at the base of the divide between the Rosebud and Little Big Horn before morning. Varnum along with Charlie Reynolds, a white scout, some Crow and Arikara scouts left as ordered.

Custer turned the regiment westward toward the divide and marched about four hours until the weary unit halted. At this point, a message was received from Varnum stating that the scouts had seen camp fire smoke and a pony herd in the valley, and the regiment again moved out about 8 a.m. Later that morning Custer arrived at the Crow’s Nest, looked through field glasses at the indicated site but, like Varnum earlier, was unable to see what the Crow scouts had seen. Although Benteen later claimed Custer did not believe the scouts’ report, Custer’s subsequent actions were those of a commander taking his command toward a scene of action.

Upon his return to the regiment, Custer was told that a detail of troopers, led by Sergeant William A. Curtis of F Company, had come upon an Indian trying to open a lost box or bundle of clothing. There were other reports from Herendeen and Bouyer of sightings of Indians who, it was assumed, had also discovered the regiment. Since it was the Indians’ custom to scatter in the presence of troops, Custer decided to strike immediately, rather than lay concealed during June 25 and attack on the morning of the 26th. At about noon on June 25, at the Rosebud-Little Big Horn divide, Custer halted the regiment and proceeded to assign commands. Reno received Companies A, G and M, and Benteen, Companies D, H and K. It is probable that Captain Keogh was given Companies I, L and C, and Captain Yates, Companies E and F. Captain Thomas McDougall’s Company B was assigned as packtrain guard. Furthermore, a noncommissioned officer and six privates were detailed from each company to help with company pack mules.


The recent archaeological studies have made clear that although the Sioux and Cheyenne were not uniformly armed with rifles and pistols, there were far more firearms present than previously believed. The cartridge casings provided the evidence of a far larger number of repeating rifles among the Indian weaponry. These casings also indicate that the flow of battle moved from the Calhoun position to the Last Stand area. Furthermore, the Indian armament would have steadily improved as carbines, pistols and ammunition were taken from the dead.

Chuck

Xfuzz said:

You lost me...can you explain ?

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Nebraska said his last name is Custer and is often asked if he is related. He did not think so.

I did some reading and found Gen Custer had a native american wife during his earlier time there. She bore a daughter, the daughter is listed as the Generals child.

The rest is listing siblings, not sure if Tom or Boston were married or had children but the General had 3 girls per the geneology site.

He had 2 brothers who passed while young and one sickly brother who lived until 1915, he had children.


When nebraska husker mentioned he gets inquiries
I got to wondering, how many siblings and children did he have. I listed what I saw on Wiki and a genealogy site.

Most folks knew his brother Tom was there but I had forgotten all about the other brother, Boston.

His father was married twice and had many children. Like many families back then had many kids. It seems General Custer's father had the ability to sire many kids. It looks like the General started a wilderness family. Rocky Mountain era trappers married local also, probably common back then.

I got this case some years ago with a bunch of other copper 45-70 cases. The missing part of the rim exactly fits the extractor of a trapdoor. The copper case is very soft, much softer than the brass we're used to, and the trapdoor extractor didn't have a very big grip on the rim. I can see that when soldiers fired as fast as they could, the carbines got so hot and fouled that often the case would get stuck and the extractor would tear through the rim when the breechblock was swung open. I wonder how many 45-70 cases found at Little Big Horn had marks like this.

Thanks for some interesting stories and the pictures.

Whenever you're in the Little Bighorn area, you really should visit the site of the 1866 Fetterman Massacre south of Sheridan. Like Custer did in 1876, Fetterman let his ego get the better of him and was lured into an ambush led by a young brave named Crazy Horse. His entire troop was massacred. Some lessons are hard to learn.

One of the best books I've read concerning the Indian Wars of the Northern Great Plains covers that incident and what led up to it. I think you'll find it a good read: The Heart of Everything That Is by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin.

Ranger514 said:

Whenever you're in the Little Bighorn area, you really should visit the Fetterman Massacre site south of Sheridan. Like Custer did in 1876, Fetterman let his ego get the better of him and was lured into an ambush led by a young brave named Crazy Horse. His entire troop was massacred. Some lessons are hard to learn.

One of the best books I've read concerning the Indian Wars of the Northern Great Plains covers that incident and what led up to it. I think you'll find it a good read: The Heart of Everything That Is by Bob Drury and Tom Clavin.

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After my wife and I left the Little Bighorn Battlefield we made our way down to the site of the Fetterman Massacre and also visited Ft. Phil Kearny and some of the other related historic sites on the way down to Ft. Laramie.

A very rewarding and engaging trip.

Absalom said:

.

That's where most of the old movies and classic paintings create the wrong impression, of whooping warriors riding around Custer's command getting shot from their horses. Most warriors made their way up Custer hill on foot; and Indian losses were likely rather low.

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^^^ What he said... This is myth number 1.

Ranger514 said:

Whenever you're in the Little Bighorn area, you really should visit the site of the 1866 Fetterman Massacre south of Sheridan. Like Custer did in 1876, Fetterman let his ego get the better of him and was lured into an ambush led by a young brave named Crazy Horse. His entire troop was massacred. Some lessons are hard to learn.

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Having grown up and lived for many years near the scenes of both the Custer and Fetterman fights, I've been to both sites many times. Certainly the Custer battlefield leaves a strong impression but, in some ways, the Fetterman site is even more powerful, at least if you visit it at the right time of year.

The Fetterman battlefield is about three miles from old Fort Phil Kearney. Phil Kearney is about 12 miles north of Buffalo, WY on Piney Creek. (As an aside, Buffalo was the target of the raiders in the later Johnson County War of 1892 - there's a lot of history in that area!). The fight took place just before Christmas of 1866. The weather was very cold and most of the soldiers' bodies were frozen stiff before they could be recovered. Fort Phil Kearney was, at the time, about as far from reinforcements as one could get, the nearest substantial post being at Ft. Laramie near present day Guernsey, WY. Those men truly were on their own.

If you want a real feel for the place, visit the site at about the time of the battle. You can stand at the monument on the hill near where the last group of soldiers fell and look way off in the distance. You'll see the interstate highway several miles away and maybe just barely hear an occasional truck in the distance. Other than that, you'll have nothing but the wind and the cold. Stand for a while and let that sink in, and you'll begin to realize just how alone those troopers were and what a lonely place that must have been to die.

Big battlefields leave a very strong impression, no doubt. Gettysburg certainly does, and the trenches at Cold Harbor do as well. But there is something about the Fetterman site that is different than the others and perhaps it is that sense of loneliness, of being completely cut off in a hopeless situation that those men must have felt at the end. It really stays with you. Anyway, stop by the Fetterman site if you get the chance, especially if you're driving by in the winter. You won't regret it.

THE PILGRIM said:

You are probably referring to the Battle of Apache Pass, AZ.
The Indians attempted to deny the Army access to the spring located there.
That was the only water for many a mile. If you couldn't get some of that water, you would to retreat.
It's one of the only times that the Apache fought from a fixed fortified position, they usually fought hit and run out in the open.
Later, Ft. Bowie was built there.

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That's the one--mucho gracias.