The Little Bighorn...

"The seventh can handle anything it meets." Gen. George A. Custer
Gen. Custer gets all the blame for the wipe out of the seventh cavalry,
but did he deserve all the blame? I have read accounts about the single
shot Springfield 45-70s used by Custer's troopers. Many of the carbines
failed to extract spent cartridges. Much evidence after the battle of
jammed cartridge cases and broken knife blades where the troopers were
trying to pry the spent cases out.
Custer was hailed as a national hero before the Little Big Horn, but lost
his "legacy" because of something beyond his control. Some who studied
the event shortly after it happened, say He could have won the battle
had it not been for the malfunctioning carbines and/or ammo.
Lets cut him some slack.
Little Bighorn was FAR from out of Custer's control.

He attacked without proper reconnaissance, and contrary to the essential elements of enemy information he had. He compounded this by not taking his heavy weapons (Gatling guns).

Blaming his weapons is little more than excuse. It was Custer's poor judgment more than anything else which doomed him and his men.
 
Little Bighorn was FAR from out of Custer's control.

He attacked without proper reconnaissance, and contrary to the essential elements of enemy information he had. He compounded this by not taking his heavy weapons (Gatling guns).

Blaming his weapons is little more than excuse. It was Custer's poor judgment more than anything else which doomed him and his men.


This ^^^.
Custer had displayed poor judgement in several battles in the Civil War (War of Northern Aggression :D )
and had to be bailed out a couple of times.
Also, by splitting his command, he seriously eroded his combat power.

The 7th, less Custer, fought well. GARY OWEN !
 
I have read virtually every book written on this "battle". There is more myth around this engagement than any other military encounter known. The myth started in 1876 and much of that myth is still firmly entrenched today. Some of the earlier posts in this thread reflect the myth. This is not something that can be explained in a few paragraphs on a forum. There are several good books on this subject (and many bad ones). For anyone seriously interested in the history I suggest you read Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Reexamined By Richard A. Fox. It can be a bit tedious to get through, but well worth the time and effort. It was enlightening for me.

[ame="https://www.amazon.com/Archaeology-History-Custers-Last-Battle-ebook/dp/B00TP8FDR8/ref=sr_1_1?s=digital-text&ie=UTF8&qid=1471534915&sr=1-1&keywords=richard+fox+bighorn"]Amazon.com: Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Reexamined eBook: Richard A. Fox: Kindle Store[/ame]
 
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Little Bighorn was FAR from out of Custer's control.

He attacked without proper reconnaissance, and contrary to the essential elements of enemy information he had. He compounded this by not taking his heavy weapons (Gatling guns).

Blaming his weapons is little more than excuse. It was Custer's poor judgment more than anything else which doomed him and his men.

Had I been in Custer's shoes? id have brought along those Gatlin guns (and any cannon if available?) anyway. I know he wanted to travel light and fast but, I still wouldn't have chanced it like he did. I like winning.
 
Had I been in Custer's shoes? id have brought along those Gatlin guns (and any cannon if available?) anyway. I know he wanted to travel light and fast but, I still wouldn't have chanced it like he did. I like winning.
The typical mountain howitzers probably would have been even more valuable than the Gatling guns, and did prove so in other engagements.

Custer did pretty much everything he could to stack the deck in the Indians' favor. That's nobody's fault but his, and was just the culmination of a series of acts of dubious judgment on his part.
 
I has been years since I read this and the details are too fuzzy to claim 100% accuracy. There was a lot of bad blood between Custer, Reno, and Benteen. Custer no doubt wanted all of the glory but would not have minded if either of the others were killed. He even refused to support one of them while they were under attack.

The Indians talk of a lot of the troopers falling from a thunder clap. This has been interpreted as a mass suicide by some troopers rather than being captured.
 
The typical mountain howitzers probably would have been even more valuable than the Gatling guns, and did prove so in other engagements.

Custer did pretty much everything he could to stack the deck in the Indians' favor. That's nobody's fault but his, and was just the culmination of a series of acts of dubious judgment on his part.

Totally agree and is exactly what I was saying. I cant remember what engagement it was? but mountain howitzers were used very effectively in that fight.
 
Totally agree and is exactly what I was saying. I cant remember what engagement it was? but mountain howitzers were used very effectively in that fight.

You may be thinking of Wounded Knee, where sadly, Hotchkiss Guns were used very effectively. The Hotchkiss replaced the mountain howitzer.
 
Totally agree and is exactly what I was saying. I cant remember what engagement it was? but mountain howitzers were used very effectively in that fight.

You are probably referring to the Battle of Apache Pass, AZ.
The Indians attempted to deny the Army access to the spring located there.
That was the only water for many a mile. If you couldn't get some of that water, you would to retreat.
It's one of the only times that the Apache fought from a fixed fortified position, they usually fought hit and run out in the open.
Later, Ft. Bowie was built there.
 
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Beg to differ. Any kind of horse-drawn, wheel-mounted and crew-served weapon would have been perfectly useless to Custer. That becomes clear to you if you've traced the route of Custer's command along the ravine-studded ridge. The only conceivable way they could have saved him would be if they had delayed his advance long enough for him to realize what he was up against and pull back in time to establish a defensible position somewhere (as Reno/Benteen were able to).

Artillery in the Indian wars was ever only usable when either the Indian targets were stationary, as in the siege of the Lava Beds during the Modoc War, or when the troops were defending an established position, like Kit Carson at Adobe Walls in 1864. In 1877 at Big Hole, in a battle of about evenly matched numbers, the troops botched an attack on a Nez Perce position, tried to use a howitzer on a fluid battlefield and promptly lost the gun to the enemy after firing a few ineffectual shots.

Considering how fast the battle moved along the Little Bighorn, and how unstructured the enemy (and quite possibly Custer's command toward the end) operated, any speculation that deploying any artillery, including the much-overrated Gatlings, would have been possible, and could have substantially altered the outcome, seems a stretch.

Maybe if Custer had been able to sneak up and hit the village with a surprise bombardment from a well-established hilltop position, the Indians would have run. But that's even more if a what-if stretch.
 
I have read virtually every book written on this "battle". There is more myth around this engagement than any other military encounter known. The myth started in 1876 and much of that myth is still firmly entrenched today. Some of the earlier posts in this thread reflect the myth. This is not something that can be explained in a few paragraphs on a forum. There are several good books on this subject (and many bad ones). For anyone seriously interested in the history I suggest you read Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Reexamined By Richard A. Fox. It can be a bit tedious to get through, but well worth the time and effort. It was enlightening for me.

Amazon.com: Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Reexamined eBook: Richard A. Fox: Kindle Store

I would be interested in hearing about these myths since the battle and battlefield have been examined numerous times. Of course there were myths early on but I believe over time they have been pretty much dispelled.
I don't think there are really much in the line of unanswered questions as to what happened that day. So what are these ongoing "myths"?
Jim
 
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Been to the Battlefield site twice and enjoyed it tremendously.
As did model70hunter, the first visit got me reading everything
i could about the combatants, the terrain, the environment at the time
between the two sides, etc... Facinating stuff !!

Just walking the ridge along the footpath gave me chills.
Knowing full well i was probably walking on long buried remains
my thoughts were of the desperation, fear, anxiety, bravado,
Heroism, screams, sounds, smells, all encountered there on
that day in 1876.
Custer's ear drums were said to have been pierced by an Indian woman
"with a sewing awl", if i am not mistaken, after the battle was over
and the Natives started to pick apart the left overs from the short
lived siege.
This was so he would "listen" better in his next life......

Lots of good books out there on the battle and the "players" in
this famous bit of history.


Chuck
 
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Maj. Reno's written report is here on the internet. Easy to find. He made
the report just 10 days after the battle. He found fault with Custer for
attacking the village around Noon instead of early morning. Attacking
after marching all night two nights and 1 day. Everyone, including the
horses, were tired out. And finally for dividing the force into three parts.
Reno thought he should have kept them all together. Of course he, like
us had excellent 20/20 hind sight. Apparantly one of the stories, whether
true or false, was that Custer committed suicide rather than fall into the
hands of the indians. We can study and speculate, but never know the
facts for certain.
 
Survivor

I read an account from a survivor of the Little Big Horn fight 40 years ago. It was a reprint from a 1920's interview in True, Saga or one of the like magazines with one on the survivors. Not US Army. He said the folks on his side couldn't understand why the Soldiers would point guns at each other and shoot. (Obviously not wanting to be taken alive) Throws water on the fighting to the last man.The writer said this might be the reason there weren't more empty fired cases than there were. Anyone else read this article?
 
I read an account from a survivor of the Little Big Horn fight 40 years ago. It was a reprint from a 1920's interview in True, Saga or one of the like magazines with one on the survivors. Not US Army. He said the folks on his side couldn't understand why the Soldiers would point guns at each other and shoot. (Obviously not wanting to be taken alive) Throws water on the fighting to the last man.The writer said this might be the reason there weren't more empty fired cases than there were. Anyone else read this article?

I didn't read that particular article, but the mass suicide theory was actually first proposed by Dr. Thomas Maquis in 1926 in his (attempted) book "Keep the last bullet for yourself". He was a doctor on the Arapaho and Cheyenne reservation in the 1910s/20s and talked to many of the surviving warriors, to come up with his conclusion. It was so unpopular at the time that he could not find a publisher; it was finally published in 1976 on the centennial of the battle; I have a first edition. Maquis likely overstates his case; the archaelogical evidence shows many more blunt force trauma injuries to skull remains than gun shot holes. But I'm sure panic played a role in the disintegration of Custer's command at the end.
 
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