Adjusting a fixed sights gun

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Rafter-S

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Gentlemen,
I have a current Model 21 with 4" barrel (fixed sights). It shoots 2" to the right at 45 feet. What can be done to adjust it where it shoots dead center? Is there a "correct" way do this?

Thank you in advance,
Rafter-S
 
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First and foremost, make sure it's the gun. Also try different ammo.

OK, if you're positive it's the gun, you can file the left hand side of the rear sight notch slightly to move the rear sight to the left and center the group. Or, depending upon the width of the notch, a machinist can mill the slight notch slightly wider.

My recollection of my chart for the 1911 is that about 0.005 inches of sight adjustment is good for 1 inch change at 25 yards/75 feet. That being the case, you're looking at about 0.012-0.015 inches (OR MORE) of material movement. Your best bet is cut and try.
 
I have three Model 21's. All three are incredibly accurate. I use Buffalo Bore ammo and Winchester Silvertips, 200 grain.

I would try different ammo and a bench rest. I would also let someone else fire it to see where they hit.

I would be surprised if it's the sights. Buy the way they are regulated for 200 grain bullets.

Frankly when you get it figured out I would like to know what the problem was. At this point I would not let a gunsmith touch it. Start removing metal from the gun and you has a mess.
 
I have done this a time or two and I much prefer thinning the front sight than opening up the rear sight. I also would STRONGLY recommend trying a couple of different shooters and different ammo as well as bench rest. With all due respect to your skill it is much more likely to be you than the weapon.
 
Hi
Try shooting off a rest at 15 or 20 feet this takes a lot of the shooter out of where it will shoot. Also try other ammo when you find one that shoots to point of aim use that.

Jim
 
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I should have explained more in my thread starter. I am shooting off a bench and my group size is about 1-inch at 45 feet. My ammo is 240 grain FMJ's that I reloaded as the accuracy ammo for two other 44 caliber handguns. By shooting such a tight group I figured this ammo should work in the model 21...if it was only hitting where aimed. I haven't tried any other weight bullets as I was hoping the gun would shoot 240's.

It's a nickel model 21 so milling on the frame wouldn't work so well.

I have heard that old gunsmiths had ways of dealing with this type thing, one being whacking the barrel with a lead hammer. I was hoping someone here knew the techniques.

Rafter-S
 
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Fry

Rafter-S said:
I should have explained more in my thread starter. I am shooting off a bench and my group size is about 1-inch at 45 feet. My ammo is 240 grain FMJ's that I reloaded as the accuracy ammo for two other 44 caliber handguns. By shooting such a tight group I figured this ammo should work in the model 21...if it was only hitting where aimed. I haven't tried any other weight bullets as I was hoping the gun would shoot 240's.

It's a nickel model 21 so milling on the frame wouldn't work so well.

I have heard that old gunsmiths had ways of dealing with this type thing, one being whacking the barrel with a lead hammer. I was hoping someone here knew the techniques.

Rafter-S
Click to expand...

Well the 240 grain ammo may be the problem. When I shoot 44 magnum loads and 44 special (200 grain) I have different points of impact. Firing them both through the same 44 magnum.

Before you make any adjustments to the 21 get some 200 grain ammo and give it a try. Midway usually has some. Try some Silvertips or Buffalo Bore.

MidwayUSA - Shop Shooting, Hunting, & Outdoor Products

The Buffalo Bore is a little pricey. It's about all I shoot in 44 and magnum and 44 special. The Slivertips are loaded a little light for self-defense or hunting. But they are fun to shoot.

At this point I'm convinced it's the 240 grain bullets when the sights are regulated for 200 grain.

The barrel isn't canted is it?
 
Yes, there is a "right way" to regulate the sights on a fixed sight revolver, but it is not for the "Home gunsmith"!!!! Because of this I will not even attempt to explain it, and no doubt is why Jerry Kuhnhausen makes no attempt to describe it in his S&W book.

"I have heard that old gunsmiths had ways of dealing with this type thing, one being whacking the barrel with a lead hammer. I was hoping someone here knew the techniques."

This is a gross over-simplification of what is done and just enough information to cause severe damage to the gun! Yes, I know and have done it many times to both S&W and Colt revolvers, but I am still not going to tell you!

If the gun is only shooting 2" off at 45' simply changing ammunition may see it shooting left, right, high or low, or any(!) combination of these. At best fixed sights can be regulated for a single load at a specific range. If this were not true then target revolvers wouldn't need adjustable sights! Simply changing to either factory .44 Special loads that replicate the original load may get the gun shooting center, or may make it worse.

All fixed sight revolvers are typically regulate to shoot (Within an un-specified tolerance) to point-of-aim with standard-for-caliber ammunition. For .44 Special this is 246 gr Lead Round Nose ammunition at ca 750 FPS. Faster or slower, lighter or heavier, and even if perfectly regulated with factory ammunition the gun will usually shoot off point-of-aim. If you are within 2" @ 45' if you are wise you will call it good. If you want a .44 revolver that shoots right to the sights then buy a Model 24, 624, 29, 629 of whatever configuration you prefer and trade for it. Otherwise accept the fact that "close" is the best you can expect with a fixed sight revolver and live with it. If the gun is capable of 1" or so @ 45' then it is very accurate. Accuracy is defined by group size, not placement relative to the aiming point.
 
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Thanks

Alk8944 said:
Yes, there is a "right way" to regulate the sights on a fixed sight revolver, but it is not for the "Home gunsmith"!!!! Because of this I will not even attempt to explain it, and no doubt is why Jerry Kuhnhausen makes no attempt to describe it in his S&W book.

"I have heard that old gunsmiths had ways of dealing with this type thing, one being whacking the barrel with a lead hammer. I was hoping someone here knew the techniques."

This is a gross over-simplification of what is done and just enough information to cause severe damage to the gun! Yes, I know and have done it many times to both S&W and Colt revolvers, but I am still not going to tell you!

If the gun is only shooting 2" off at 45' simply changing ammunition may see it shooting left, right, high or low, or any(!) combination of these. At best fixed sights can be regulated for a single load at a specific range. If this were not true then target revolvers wouldn't need adjustable sights! Simply changing to either factory .44 Special loads that replicate the original load may get the gun shooting center, or may make it worse.

All fixed sight revolvers are typically regulate to shoot (Within an un-specified tolerance) to point-of-aim with standard-for-caliber ammunition. For .44 Special this is 246 gr Lead Round Nose ammunition at ca 750 FPS. Faster or slower, lighter or heavier, and even if perfectly regulated with factory ammunition the gun will usually shoot off point-of-aim. If you are within 2" @ 45' if you are wise you will call it good. If you want a .44 revolver that shoots right to the sights then buy a Model 24, 624, 29, 629 of whatever configuration you prefer and trade for it. Otherwise accept the fact that "close" is the best you can expect with a fixed sight revolver and live with it. If the gun is capable of 1" or so @ 45' then it is very accurate. Accuracy is defined by group size, not placement relative to the aiming point.
Click to expand...

Thank you. You did a way better job than I did of explaining it.
 
You could also have a knowledgeable and equipped pistolsmith loosen up the barrel slightly so that the front sight is moved over to the right about 0.25" to 0.35". There are several considerations to be taken as to how tight the barrel fits in the frame and certain steps are to be taken to not over loosen the barrel while trying to re-position the front sight. ..

Another thought; is your front sight nickle plated also? Bright front sights and those that have a very smooth face often pickup strong sunlight coming from a certain direction and fool the shooter's eye as to the correct centering of the sights. Have you been shooting in the morning with the sun to your left? That alone could account for your group being off by a mere 2" at 15 yds.
 
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I'm not sure what Alk8944's logic is deciding to not reveal the big secret but he knows more than I so I'll respect it. Trust me, damn few of us would do it our selves.

No one has mentioned that how you hold a revolver affects how it recoils before the bullet leaves the barrel. Also, our eyesight can affect point of impact. I do not care where my guns shoot while some one else fires them. I only care about their point of impact while I am firing them standing up. In addition to trying different loads try firing while standing on your own hind feet. Assuming that you are right handed, rotating your grip clockwise around the grip so that more of your finger sticks through the trigger guard gives less resistance to the revolver recoiling toward the center of your body shifting the point of impact to the left. It also centers the first joint of your trigger finger on the trigger for increased leverage working the trigger double action. Isn't that what fixed sighted revolvers are for?
 
Try this before cutting on your revolver:
pistol%20correction%20chart_zpsxmcn20sp.jpg
 
Every gun will have a slightly different sight picture for POA with different ammo.

If POA with the ammo you like is just 2" to the right at 45', but it shoots 1" groups, I'd just make a slight adjustment to the sight picture.

Line the blade up in the rear sight notch with a little more gap on the right of the blade and less gap on the left.

I'd try that first. If it works, problem solved.
 
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TAROMAN's instruction sheet was created for one handed NRA Conventional Pistol Matches. It was intended to help beginners tighten their offhand group and to diagnose why a shooter was throwing flyers out of their regular pattern. After a competitor's group or cluster got consistent enough to establish the point of impact (POI) the competitor adjusted his or her sights. I do not believe it is useful for moving a 1" group to a different POI.
 
If the barrel is not properly indexed (if it's shooting to the right it will be overclocked), you could have a gunsmith with the proper equipment remove and retighten to the proper location. The front sight will need to be moved to the right.
I tend to side with the others who have advised to leave it be. Striking the barrel with a babbitt bar is not for the faint-hearted....and any sort of intervention could cause a variety of other problems.
 
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There is a good gunsmith in Blossom not a long way from you that could do what Armorer951 suggests. His name is Mike. Call the hardware store or stop by. They sell reloading supplies anyway and they can give you directions.
 
robertrwalsh said:
I have done this a time or two and I much prefer thinning the front sight than opening up the rear sight.
Click to expand...

How well that works depends upon how thick the front sight is. With the old style half moons about as wide as a penny is thick, it really isn't an option. I used to machine those into a ramp with 40 lpi serrations and made a lot of folks very happy.

The babbit bar method is factory blessed, but has the potential to turn a firearm into a paperweight. Like a couple of other factory blessed procedures, there are alternative, better ways to do it. You can always find a way to fit different sights.
 
I too have heard MANY stories about S&W "adjusting" a fixed sight gun by smacking it with a Lead Babbit but I do not know first hand if this is a rumor or fact. Either way, I would NOT smack my own gun with a heavy piece of lead, regardless of what the Factory does or does not do. There are too many down sides - the loosening of the barrel or stripping of threads would be primary concerns.

I have adjusted fixed sight guns in the past by widening the rear sight track a little and this has been a tried and true method if changing ammo has failed. Most of my fixed sight guns are pretty much right on but occasionally one needs a bit of help. Obviously there will be a little refinishing needed after the adjustment but if the gun needs to be spot-on, then it is justified.

It also depends on the gun in question. For instance if a 2" Chief's Special shoots within 2 inches of dead center at 50 feet, I would not personally bother since I deem 2" at 50 feet to be more than accurate enough for a CCW. I doubt I will ever need to take a 50 foot shot with that kind of gun. If it were off by 3 inches at 10 feet - now that would be a problem I'd have to address!
 
I have weakened. I can not read it another time. While the factory whacks revolvers to adjust windage and they trained armorers employed by large police departments to whack department revolvers, they do not whack the barrel!

Also, it is far better to get a feel for how hard to whack by whacking inexpensive Model 10s that the owner is not going to cry over after a few are ruined.
 
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I like fixed sight sevolvers, if the original load for which it was regulated does not impact at POA and other loads do not, the I will try different grips. If that doesn't work then I use some Kentucky.
 
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