Police shooting 9mm failed to stop bad guy

I bet this debate is as old as time. I can see it now a group of cavemen debating on which spear kills a mammoth the quickest. The grunts and the ughs well my stick is bigger so it works better or the other well I can carry more sticks so I have one more just in case. Then there is the caveman carrying the stick that works the best through repeated throwing and tweaking. He knows that all the sticks don't work the same all the time on every mammoth so he practices throwing his stick and carries another just in case.

I really like the comments in this thread, very educative.

I will share a story that goes along with the general consensus about calibers.

My grand father was an artillery leutenant during the Spanish Civil War (1936-1939).
During a battle, they were atacked by german paratroopers (as granddad use to tell me), at one point he was looking at the muzzle of a Luger (P08) 9 mm pistol....on the other end a German Captain.

Grand dad carry his own pistol during the war.....A Luger in 30 parabellum.

When he realized that he was about to get killed, he emptied his 30 cal Luger on the German Captain....Killing him almost instantly (I guess).

When the skirmish was over (they managed to kill the entire german platoon), one of his men aproach and told him "Commander you have been shot", my grand father didnt realize that the Nazi officer shot at him (several times according to his troops), and hitting him once between the shoulder and the neck. The scar was there and I saw it countless of times.

He use to say that..."a couple of centimeters more and that Nazi would have blown my neck".

Sometimes is more about luck than the diameter of the bullet....I think

Uh, a "couple of centimeters more..."?

You mean an 11 mm?

Cheers!

STORMINORMAN said:

Uh, a "couple of centimeters more..."?

You mean an 11 mm?

Cheers!

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His scar was very near to the base of his neck about half an inch from it.

I noticed few things while working Robbery/Homicide GSW cases. First thing I noticed is those hit with larger caliber handgun rounds were usually at the scene waiting for us, to chalk up their outline.

Those hit with smaller caliber rounds usually were at the hospital and the vast majority of them were saved by medical intervention.

But in ALL the GSW Homicides I worked, the constant was shot placement. A hit in the eye socket with a 380 being better than peripheral hit with a Fo-tay.

When shot placement coincided with a large caliber round, we used a lot of chalk.

The other thing I noticed is these unfortunate incidents involving social gunfire were over VERY quickly. 2, 3, 4 shots being the norm. Then you had a 1st place and a 2nd place winner. Only one case I recall ran more than that. That miscreant was hit by 8 rounds. But the ME told us the 2nd round killed him. His murderer fired the additional 6 rounds into him while doing a "victory dance" according to witnesses.

And the "Officer Grammins incident" is constantly brought up by the small caliber high capacity crowd as an excuse to go to 9mm vs 45. It is a poor example to use for that purpose. By Officer Grammins own admission right after the incident, when he tried to calm down, focus on his sights and "work the basics" he fired the round that ended the fight. This case was used in training to illustrate to us the value of trying to remain calm and work the basics QUICKLY. To end a fight using shot placement. Regardless of caliber.

And YES I am aware that Grammins now uses a 9mm and carries almost 150 rounds on duty on his already heavy duty belt. More power to him! Those that go forth should have the final say on what goes with them.

And a single stack 45 loaded with RA45T is what goes with me more often than not. Capacity is NOT a concern, to me. If I fell the need for "capacity" I'll carry an extra mag. Or two. I know, based on experience, that I will be out of time, before I am out of ammo. I will also likely be the 2nd one to know I am in an unfortunate incident.

And on days I need a discreet carry gun, like going to social events or Church, I will carry a single stack 9mm. With 147 RA9T. And I will not feel as comfortable or "comforted" as I would with a 45 in my holster. But in the event of an incident, I will try to be calm and work the basics quickly.....while fighting my way to my shotgun. YMMV and probably should. Regards 18DAI

18DAI-
Good post, but I doubt you'll sway those who spend most waking moments obsessing over gunfighting theory and all that goes with it - jello and denim "testing", the latest in magical bullets, YouTube, FBI trivia, big magazine capacities, cartridge arguments, etc. They'll never tire of what they consider "reasoning" and all else that is tired and worn out.

Maybe they need to get out and do some shooting instead.

Elmer Keith certainly got out and did a lot of shooting. Despite being a big bore fan he called the .45 acp ball round “a poor killer”. He said it was unreliable even on small game. He shot many tough old Jack rabbits with it and said when hit through the body with a round they usually showed no immediate reaction and continued feeding. His .44 spl loads with sharp shoulder flat nose SWCs were much more effective. The 1911 along with the lumbering 800 FPS RN bullet is the most over rated, over hyped gun and ctg. in history. A good 9mm FMJ round is .355” in dia and runs at 1200 FPS. If you actually believe it’s ineffective and the 3/32 “ larger .45 acp FMJ at 800 FPS is a knock em down and stomp em death ray.... Hopefully you’ll never have to bet your life on it.

I Remember back when the 10rd magazine laws when into effect. Suddenly the popular 9mm restricted to 10 rounds , trailed behind the .40 cal in sales. Once that ban was lifted the 9mm became the gun to have again.Honestly the big attraction to that round will always be the high capacity guns that chamber it.

All of my 9mm firearms are in my gun safe gathering dust. My .40 calibers and 357 Magnums are my choice to EDC.
NUFF SAID!

How do you shoot a perp x16 with a 45 and it takes head shot to stop him?
The only answer regardless of BS is than no major organs or bones were hit. It must be considered a miracle that blood loss alone should have shut the guy down.
I have shot deer with 12g slugs, that cleaned out their ticker and they ran till they hit a tree. Many deer shot on the dead run, are running dead. Have shot deer multiple hits with 30/06, nothing important struck and spent hours tracking them to where they bled to death.
On the other hand deer that are unaware they are going to be shot usually go down like a sack of sand. I had to shoot a 700 lb steer with a 22 one time. It was about 20yds standing in pasture, waited for it to put its head down and dropped it.
I’m more comfortable with an accurate & dependable gun than the caliber.

My best friend's neighbor knows a guy who is in charge of weapons and munitions for the newly formed Space Force. He says that they have dumped all their powder and bullet weapons and ammo and replaced them with phased plasma rifles and pistols in the 40 watt range. Turns a man into jello, he says.

STORMINORMAN said:

Capacity? 14 vs. 17? IMHO, after a dozen (or so?) it really does not matter, much...

Caliber? If skill levels are equal, the BIGGER the better... (Anything is better than nothing!)

Shot placement? Hopefully one of the first few will be in a vital area, otherwise it is probably best to continue until the threat is terminated... (Bella did!)

What is decided (and, ultimately, for WHATEVER reasons?) to be the best for a group does not, and should not, IMHO, dictate what is right for an individual...

Cheers!

P.S. i, too, have a high opinion of the 40 S&W, but would probably choose the 357 SIG if I happened to be looking for trouble. But that's not something I normally contemplate.

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A person shooting another in SD using multiple shots really needs to be able to justify each and every shot, especially if the perp is dead. I'm not a lawyer, but there are some slick ones out there that will grill you in court!

Biggfoot44 said:

9mm isn't "more better than everything else" as the FBI is spinning. As much as wiz bang bullet technology has improved 9mm performance, that technology can also be applied to .357Sig, .40S&W, .45acp, .38 Spl, etc.

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While this is both a truthful and logical statement, it is a flawed sentiment which is based on misconception.

You see, 9mm JHP technology was improved out of necessity because back in the early days of Jacketed Hollowpoint ammunition being used in Law Enforcement, prior to the formation of the established FBI Specifications, ballistics performance was highly theoretical, and therefore JHPs weren't designed nor tested to confirm that they performed adequately because nobody had established a baseline for effectiveness. In fact, early on, the FBI was far more concerned with expansion than penetration, opting for bullets which expanded as much in diameter as possible, believing that the energy dump and larger wound diameter would be more incapacitating, right up until the infamous Miami-Dade FBI Shootout of 1986 when it was illustrated that deeper penetration was required for reliable incapacitation.

These facts are largely rejected by 9mm Luger advocates as it doesn't fit their narrative that 9mm Luger was always perfect and that there was never any legitimate need for the FBI to switch cartridges because the Miami Shootout was only such a huge disaster because the bad guys had rifles, and the underpenetration of the 9mm cartridge was only a scapegoat because apparently it would have made no difference if the bullet had reacted the heart.
Not to say that there was no fault in the FBI's tactics, but yeah, 9mm Luger did indeed fail to penetrate deeply enough in that instance, and the FBI was right to seek a new bullet.

Ironically, advocates of the 9mm Luger cartridge are also the first to point out the advancements in ballistics technology which they also claim were unnecessary, regardless of the fact that said advancements would have never occurred if the FBI hadn't moved away from the cartridge and formed the Testing Protocol which lead to the established FBI Specifications which were in turn used as the basis for modern 9mm JHP performance.

Anyway, as I was saying, the improvements in ballistics technology which made the 9mm JHP viable for duty aren't applicable to .40 S&W because .40 S&W was the basis for said performance to begin with, and is also less beneficial towards .45 ACP JHPs which already penetrated/expanded reliably, yet merely wasn't chosen as a replacement for .38 Special/9mm Luger in the past due to the lesser magazine capacity and poor barrier penetration. (At the time, the FBI was far more concerned about straight line barrier penetration since the perps in the Miami Shootout had used their car as cover which was believed to be a factor in the failure of JHPs.)

So no, the technology that made 9mm JHPs viable is by and large non-applicable towards other cartridges like .40 S&W, .357 SIG, and .45 ACP since those cartridges were either designed around FBI Specifications to begin with (.40 S&W / .357 SIG) or other never had any serious problems with reliable expansion or penetration to begin with.
If the improvements which were applied to 9mm JHP were applied to other catridges, then their performance would exceed FBI Specs, thus rendering them a failure being their "enhanced performance" would become a liability. There's a reason why the mighty 10mm Auto isn't a popular self-defense cartridge in full-power loads, and contrary to popular egocentric belief, it isn't because it's just so gosh-darn powerful that even trained LEOs can't handle the incredible recoil/blast that only the manliest of men can handle. It's because it overpenetrates, which can lead to collateral damage. (Yeah, yeah, I know... Not all 10mm loads overpenetrate, right? Well lemme guess, they aren't 200grs @ 1200fps, are they? Closer to maybe 180gr @ 1000fps or some 135gr @ 1700fps deal that can't overpenetrate because it fragments in soft tissue, right? Okay, good talk.)

I can only relate with my personal experience and that of a few of my work friends. There are a lot of arm chair experts around but from those of us who were in the trenches any of the above calibers mentioned will work if you put the bullet in the right spot. Before buying the next biggest hand howitzer you read about, just learn to use the one you got accurately and chances are very high you will be well armed for an emergency that I hope will never come.

ruger 22 said:

I can only relate with my personal experience and that of a few of my work friends. There are a lot of arm chair experts around but from those of us who were in the trenches any of the above calibers mentioned will work if you put the bullet in the right spot. Before buying the next biggest hand howitzer you read about, just learn to use the one you got accurately and chances are very high you will be well armed for an emergency that I hope will never come.

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You're right, but outnumbered by the arm chair experts. A true law enforcement perspective from those who actually did real police work is worth far more than what many self-recognized experts have for educational credentials - an education often based on YouTube videos and other Internet sources of dubious worth.

Since concealed carry became widespread, it has developed into a hobby of its own. Included in this hobby are the theories, obsessions, specialty ammos, gadgets, "what ifs", frequent reference to an FBI shootout, and general obstinacy. It seems the hobby enthusiasts place little importance on learning to shoot well because that's seldom mentioned.

^^^^This is perfect.

Nothing brings stupid to the front like a caliber discussion.

Forte Smitten Wesson said:

You see, 9mm JHP technology was improved out of necessity because back in the early days of Jacketed Hollowpoint ammunition being used in Law Enforcement, prior to the formation of the established FBI Specifications, ballistics performance was highly theoretical, and therefore JHPs weren't designed nor tested to confirm that they performed adequately because nobody had established a baseline for effectiveness.

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Excellent alternative history.

The problem is, hollow point bullets were adopted by LE to REDUCE OVER PENETRATION. That is the "effectiveness" sought. Not protecting officers, not subduing perps quicker.

rockquarry said:

You're right, but outnumbered by the arm chair experts. A true law enforcement perspective from those who actually did real police work is worth far more than what many self-recognized experts have for educational credentials - an education often based on YouTube videos and other Internet sources of dubious worth.

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Absolutely false. LE/military perspective is worse than useless to civilian defensive shooters.

This forum has different groups of participants. I expect civilian gun owners on this forum outnumber the LE/military, though the largest group may be like me, a veteran, civilian gun owner.

I am not a low drag, high speed operator. I have no interest in being one. I'm not going to train much.

Early posts about shot placement are actually correct for LE/military. They are completely wrong for the mass of civilian gun owners on this forum.

Gamecock said:

Absolutely false. LE/military perspective is worse than useless to civilian defensive shooters.

This forum has different groups of participants. I expect civilian gun owners on this forum outnumber the LE/military, though the largest group may be like me, a veteran, civilian gun owner.

I am not a low drag, high speed operator. I have no interest in being one. I'm not going to train much.

Early posts about shot placement are actually correct for LE/military. They are completely wrong for the mass of civilian gun owners on this forum.

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Perhaps I didn't phrase it well if that's your understanding of what I stated. What I meant was that law enforcement personnel who have spent years doing actual police work (not administrative) have an understanding of many things mentioned in these posts that many civilian concealed carriers don't have. That's no slight to civilian carriers, but it seems many of them try to look at matters from a law enforcement perspective, a perspective they lack.

I have no idea what a "low drag, high speed operator" is. Practice is important in becoming a skilled shooter. We all know that.

None of this is worth arguing.