Ammo for a model 41

BB57,

Thank you very much for your informative and detailed response. In my 40+ years collecting and shooting High Standards, this was literally the first I had heard of this phenomenon. Now I’ll have to go check all of my Supermatics that have received moderate to heavy use and see whether I have this problem and didn’t know it. Strange to come to the S&W Forum to get this info about HS pistols though. Thanks again!

Regards,
Froggie

Green Frog said:

BB57,

Thank you very much for your informative and detailed response. In my 40+ years collecting and shooting High Standards, this was literally the first I had heard of this phenomenon. Now I’ll have to go check all of my Supermatics that have received moderate to heavy use and see whether I have this problem and didn’t know it. Strange to come to the S&W Forum to get this info about HS pistols though. Thanks again!

Regards,
Froggie

Click to expand...

No problem. Again, frame cracks are mostly associated with high round count bullseye guns, or with those fired extensively with high velocity amp and weak recoil springs.

But if you buy one, it’s always a good idea to remove the slide and the stocks and inspect for a crack.

That cracking tendency in the Hi Standard pistols is unfortunate as in many ways the Hi Standards are superior to the S&W Model 41. I own and have shot the Hi Standard 107 Victor, the Model 41 and both the Ruger Mk I 678 and Mk II 512 target pistols (both with volquartzen triggers) in bullseye competition, and for bullseye or pin shooting purposes I prefer them in exactly that order. The Model 41 is a fine target pistol, but the Victor has a better trigger and a better feel, at least for me.

—-


As for the Model 41, the current S&W Model 41 manual doesn’t specify anything other than SAAMI specification “.22 Long Rifle” as marked on the slide.

If you talk to old school bullseye shooters they’ll tell you the Model 41 is a target pistol designed for standard velocity target ammo. Standard velocity ammo was often required in matches, particularly in indoor ranges, but as far as I know it was never an S&W requirement.

I am also not aware of the Model 41 having issues with frame cracks.

The CMP has Eley 22LR standard velocity at a reasonable price for match grade ammo.. PS do not spread that around

PAgunman said:

Yes, my model 41 shoots the Federal Automatch 40 grain 1200 FPS ammo flawlessly as well. But will this hurt the gun, the springs, or crack the frame? I read that the top end definition of SV is 1150 FPS. CCI SV is 1070. CCI mini mags are a 36 grain bullet and 1435 FPS…..HV. Just asking. I really like the Federal Automatch……why does it work so well when others don’t?

Click to expand...

S&W doesn’t limit the Model 41 to standard velocity ammo, just to SAAMI spec .22 Long Rifle. Personally, I’d avoid the hyper velocity .22 LR ammo.

——

Most standard velocity ammo has a velocity of 1060-1080 FPS. That keeps it comfortably below the speed of sound and out of the transonic region on a cool day.


Those velocities are also based on rifle length barrels.

Winchester T-22 Target ammo as well as Winchester Super-X Standard Velocity both have a nominal velocity of 1150 FPS. Remington Target .22LR does as well. Aquila Standard Velocity has a velocity of 1135 FPS.

Those rounds are where you see the up to 1150 FPS figure being called “standard velocity”. It’s well below the 1240-1280 FPS or so that is common for “high velocity” .22 LR but no serious match shooter will consider 1150 FPS to be standard velocity for good reason.

The speed of sound is almost entirely dependent on air temperature at at a standard temp of 59 degrees the speed of sound is 1116 FPS.

At 90 degrees F the speed of sound increases to 1149 FPS and at 100 degrees F it is 1159 FPS.

Conversely at 30 degrees F the speed of sound is 1084 FPS and at 10 degrees F it is 1062 FPS.

——

Putting that together then, out of a rifle, Winchester T-22 and Remington Target ammo is only subsonic at high temperatures above about 95 degrees.

Conversely, even standard velocity ammo at 1060 FPS shot from a rifle will be supersonic at temperatures much below 10 degrees F.

Supersonic velocity is a problem for .22 LR target ammo as the .22 LR has to use a heel based bullet since the bullet diameter is the same as the case diameter. Heel based bullets do not transition well to sub sonic velocity, and that instability as they transition adversely affects accuracy.

Most high velocity .22 LR ammo will go sub sonic within about 35 yards so that instability shows up in poor accuracy at the 50 yard line. In addition, wind has a significantly greater effect on a supersonic .22 LR bullet than it does on a sub sonic .22 LR bullet and they lose velocity much faster at supersonic velocities.

The end result is that even for long range .22 LR shooting, a standard velocity round is a better choice as it is more accurate and drifts less, even though it drops a bit more.

Consequently, most .22 LR ammo marketed as standard velocity and nearly all .22 LR marketed as target ammo will have a muzzle velocity around 1060-1080 FPS to avoid those transonic stability/accuracy issues.

——

Companies like Remington and Aquila that market supersonic “target” or “standard velocity” ammo then use the term “subsonic” for subsonic ammo with velocities around 1020-1025 FPS. It stays subsonic down to about -25 degrees F. Other companies market a “subsonic” .22LR round because it appeals to the suppressor fan boys.

I’ve never seen the point. In a 20” precision .22 LR or a 24”-28” .22LR target rifle, normal “standard velocity” ammo with a 1060-1080 FPS muzzle velocity will be ear safe. In a handgun, most “High Velocity” ammo will be subsonic and certainly all ammo marketed as “standard velocity”, even the 1135-1150 FPS variety will be sub sonic. You still need a suppressor due to the short barrel, but you don’t need a “sub sonic” marketed round.

Some published velocities for .22 LR rounds:

Aquila
Aguila Ammunition | Feed Your Firearm | Aguila Ammo
Colibri-20 grains, Lead Nose,340 FPS
Super Colibri-20 grains, Lead Nose,500 FPS
Super Max HP-30grain,Copper Coated Lead Hollow Point,1750 FPS
Super Max SP-30grain,Copper Coated Lead Round Nose,1750 FPs
High Velocity HP-38grain,Copper Coated Lead Hollow Point,1280 FPS
Subsonic HP-38grain, Lead Hollow Point,1025 FPS
Golden Eagle Target-40grain, Lead Round Nose,1100 FPS
High Velocity SP-40grain,Copper Coated Round Nose,1250 FPS
Match Pistol-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1080 FPS
Match Rifle-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1080 FPS
Standard Velocity-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1135 FPs
Subsonic SP-40grain,Lead Round Nose, 1025 FPS
Sniper Sub Sonic-60grain, Lead Round Nose,956 FPS

CCI
Sites-VistaCCI-Site
Mini-Mag High Velocity- 40grain,Gilded Lead Round Nose,1235 FPS
Standard Velocity- 40grain,Lead Round Nose, 1070 FPS
Stinger- 32grain,Gilded Lead Hollow Point, 1640 FPS
Mini-Mag Hollow point-36grain,Gilded Lead Hollow Point, 1260 FPS
Segmented Hollow Point-32grain,Segmented Hollow Point bullet, 1640 FPS
Segmented Hollow Point-40grain,segmented Hollow Point Bullet, 1050 FPS
SGB-40grain,Lead Flat Nose, 1235
Subsonic Hollow Point-40grain,Lead Hollow Point, 1050 FPS
Velociter-40grain,Gilded Lead Hollow Point,1435 FPS
Shotshell-31grain,Number 12 shot shell, WILL NOT CYCLE IN AUTOS
Stinger-32grain, Gilded Lead Hollow Point, 1640 FPS
Green Tag-40grain,Lead Round Nose, 1070 FPS
Pistol Match-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1070 FPS
Select-40grain,Lead Round Nose, 1200 FPS

Eley
Page not found -
*Disclaimer*The Listed Eley ammo speeds are gathered from their website, and are very general in terms. A more precise FPS can be found printed on every box of ammo by the lot #.
Rapid Fire Match-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1085 FPS
Club Match-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1085 FPS
Target Rifle-40grain, Lead Round Nose,1085 FPS
Subsonic Xtra-Plus-40grain, Lead Hollow PointNose,1050 FPS
Tennex Ultimate EPS-40grain,Lead EPS,1085 FPS
Mach EPS-40grain, EPS, 1085 FPS
Sports-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1135 FPS
Tennex Pistol-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1030 FPS
Match OSP-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1030 FPS
Match Pistol-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1000 FPS
Team-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1085 FPS

Federal
Shop products in Rimfire today | Federal Premium
*The Code Listed Before The Brand Name is the Load Number*
510-Champion Target- 40grain, Solid Lead, 1240 FPS
710-Game-Shok- 40grain,Copper Plated Solid, 1240 FPS
711B-Gold Medal-40grain,Solid, 1080 FPS
712-Game Shok-38grain,Copper Plated Hollow Point, 1110 FPS
714-Gameshock-40grain, Solid Lead, 1080 FPS
716-Game Shok-25grain, No. 12 Lead Shot,
724-Game Shok-31grain, Copper Plated Hollow Point, 1197 FPS
745-Champion Target-36grain,Copper Plated Hollow Point, 1104 FPS
810-Game Shok-40grain,Copper Plated Solid, 1240 FPS
AE22-American Eagle-38,Copper Plated Hollow Point, 1260
AE5022-American Eagle-40grain,Solid Lead, 1240 FPS
AM22Champion Target-40grain,Solid Lead, 1,200 FPS
719-Auto Match Gold Medal-40grain,Solid Lead, 1200 FPS
UM22-Ultra Match Gold Medal-40grain,Solid Lead, 1080 FPS
922A-Match Gold Medal-40grain,Solid Lead, 1080 FPS
900B-Match-40grain, Solid Lead, 1000FPS
UM1B-40 grain, Solid Lead, 1080 FPS
Match 900a-40grain, Solid Lead,1185 FPS
UM1-Gold Medal Match-40grain, Solid Lead,1185 FPS

Fiocchi
22ammo.com - This website is for sale! - 22ammo Resources and Information.
Super Match 280-40 grain, Lead Round Nose, 950 FPS
Super Match 320-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1080 FPS
Super Match 340-40grain, Lead Round Nose,1095 FPS
Match 320-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1080 fps
HVCRN-40grain, Copper Plated Lead Round Nose,1255 FPS
HVCHP-38grain,Copper Plated Hollow Point,1280 FPS
CRN-40grain, Lead Round Nose,1225 FPS
Maxac-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1148 FPS

Lapua
http://www.eabco.com/Lapua03.html
X-ACT-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1073 FPS
Midas Plus-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1073 FPS
Center-X-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1073 FPS
Pistol King-40grain,Lead Round Nose,958 FPS
Pistol OSP-40grain,Lead Round Nose,277 FPS
Polar Biathlon-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1106 FPS


Remington
http://www.remington.com/products/am...22_rimfire.asp
22 Subsonic Long Rifle- 38grains, Hollow Point
22 Long Rifle- 40grains , Lead Round Nose
High Velocity Golden Bullet- 40grains, Plated Lead Round Nose
High Velocity Golden Bullet- 36grains, Plated Hollow Point
22 Yellow Jacket LR- 33grains, Truncated Cone Hollow Point
22 Viper LR- 36grains, Truncated Cone Solid
CBee Long Rifle- 33grains, Hollow Point
22 Thunderbolt LR- 40grains, Lead Round Nose
22 Cyclone LR- 36grains, Hollow Point
22 Game Loads- 36grains, Hollow Point

RWS
http://www.rws-munition.de/en/sports...n.htm?navid=27
Subsonic-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1000 FPS
RWS Target Rifle-40grain, Lead Round Nose,1035 FPS

Sellier & Bellot
http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/rimfire-ammunition.php
22 Long Rifle High Velocity-36grain,Copper plated Lead Round Nose,1330 FPS
22 Long Rifle SB Club-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1080 FPS
22 Long Rifle High Velocity HP-38grain,Lead Hollow Point,1280 FPS
22 Long Rifle SB Standard-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1080 FPS

SK
http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?op...d=3&Itemid=118
22 Long Rifle Standard Plus-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1050 FPS
22 Long Rifle Match-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1033 FPS
22 Long Rifle Rifle Match-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1050 FPS
22 Long Rifle Pistol Match-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1050 FPS
22 Long Rifle Pistol Match-40grain, Flat Nose, 1031 FPS
22 Long Rifle High Velocity-40grain, Flat Nose, 1063 FPS
22 Long Rifle High Velocity-40grain, Hollow Point, 1063 FPS
22 Long Rifle Subsonic-40grain, Hollow Point, 1063 FPS

Winchester
http://www.winchester.com/products/catalog/rimfire.aspx
WW22LR-Wildcat-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1255 FPS
XPERT22-Xpert-36grain, Lead Hollow Point, 1220 FPS
WD22LRB-Dynapoint-40grain, Dynapoint Copper Plated Lead, 1150 FPS
X22LR-Super-X-40grain,Lead Round Nose,1255 FPS
X22LRH-Super-X-37grain,Lead Hollow Point,1280 FPS
X22LRHSS1-Super-X-37grain,Lead Hollow Point,1330 FPS
X22RPP-SuperX Power Point-40grain,Lead Hollow Point, 1280 FPS
X22LRPP1-SuperX Power Point-40grain, Lead Round Nose,1280 FPS
X22LRS-SuperX 12Shot- #12 shot-Crimped Tip
X22LRSS1-SuperX-40grain, Lead Round Nose,1300 FPS
X22LRSUBA-Super X-40 grain, Lead Hollow Point, 1065 FPS
XT22Lr-SuperX Standard Velocity-40grain,Lead Round Nose, 1150 FPS


Wolf
http://www.wolfammo.com/index.php?op...d=3&Itemid=118
22 Long Rifle Match Target-40grain,Lead Round Nose, 1050 FPS
22 Long Rifle Match Extra-40grain, Lead Round Nose, 1050 FPS

Green Frog said:

BB57,

Thank you very much for your informative and detailed response. In my 40+ years collecting and shooting High Standards, this was literally the first I had heard of this phenomenon. Now I’ll have to go check all of my Supermatics that have received moderate to heavy use and see whether I have this problem and didn’t know it. Strange to come to the S&W Forum to get this info about HS pistols though. Thanks again!

Regards,
Froggie

Click to expand...

Froggie,
I shot a 107 Supermatic Trophy (much modified) in Bullseye competition for 18 years using CCI SV ammo. I can't even begin to think of the number of rounds that went through that gun. Indoor 2700 match every month, added outdoor matches all summer long, winter league, practice matches 3-4 times a week. Never a sign of cracking on the receiver. I know they do it but I haven't seen one yet amoungst the bullseye shooters I knew using Hi Standards.

Stu

I have said this before, model 41's seem to come in two flavors, either really finicky and unreliable and happy campers that will feed and shoot anything. Mine is a happy camper. After you have put a 1000 rounds through yours give it a good cleaning. The problem areas for model 41's seem to be recoil springs (either to heavy or to light) extractors, there are some aftermarket ones that are better and lastly chambers that are tighter then they should be. On the chamber sometimes all it needs is to be polished. Here is a very good website for Model 41 maintenance. Model 41 maintenance

If all else fails send it to KC customs, he is well regarded when it comes to model 41's

Ammo for model 41

Wow. Thanks for all the fantastic information and websites. This is a great forum with wonderful, knowledgeable people!
I have learned A LOT!

I was told today by a very wise older gentleman to load only 5 bullets in each magazine for use…..he said that is what is allowed in competition and the fewer bullets that one has in the magazine, the more reliably it should feed and shoot with no problems. He did say to use SV ammo as well. I learn much everyday!

I’ve not had much experience with formal or sanctioned matches of any kind. I’ve tried just about all them at one time or another. I do have a lot of experience with guns and have owned hundreds.
It isn’t a trade secret that Hi-Std suffer cracked frames from HV ammo or just round count due to match shooters. Dealing in Target Guns is like dealing Corvettes, you get two kinds. The ones with the snot run out of them or one that has been babied. There seems to be no in between.
When 22 Target pistols hit the used market many are bought by whistle dicks that have no idea that HV ammo should not be used in them. Most wouldn’t know frame cracked unless gun stopped running.

stu1ritter said:

Froggie,
I shot a 107 Supermatic Trophy (much modified) in Bullseye competition for 18 years using CCI SV ammo. I can't even begin to think of the number of rounds that went through that gun. Indoor 2700 match every month, added outdoor matches all summer long, winter league, practice matches 3-4 times a week. Never a sign of cracking on the receiver. I know they do it but I haven't seen one yet amoungst the bullseye shooters I knew using Hi Standards.

Stu

Click to expand...

It’s hard to find any hard data on failure rates, but given the 500-600 CT era guns that Alan Aronstein reported with frame cracks against rhe number of guns out there, it’s obvious the rate of crack in is low, probably on the order of 1 in every 500 to 1000 guns. However it is a known issue and a known vulnerability. I don’t know any informed Hi Standard Victor, Citation or Supermatic owner who shoots HV ammo in their pistol.

Will shooting HV ammo in one cause a crack? Almost certainly not in the short term, but why risk it, especially in what is by design a target pistol intended to shoot SV ammo?

——-

In terms of the S&W 41, S&W makes no mention of it and HV ammo is apparently fine to shoot in them.

They also still sell a lot of them even though Bullseye shooting is in sharp decline. I assume then that most of them are being purchased by shooters who use them for general plonking and range use and just appreciate a handgun that is a couple cuts above a Ruger Mk IV, a S&W Victory or a Browning Buckmark.