Gun Sales By State

ladder13 said:

I look at gun, I decide to buy gun, I show my CHP and DL, I fill out 4473, I pay the cashier, I walk. Could take a few minutes.

My CHP is my NICS check, good for five years.

I believe that is similar to what pawngal is saying regarding Iowa.

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So what happens if you become a felon, subject of a domestic restraining order or court committed to a mental hospital AFTER you get your carry permit? How would the person selling you the gun know? If you are doing a 4473, then they are doing a NICS check. It's probably that you are just not seeing it. If the 4473 is done on a computer, then the NICS check is done when they hit the button to submit the form. It is almost instantaneous and the shop will get an approval or denial via the computer. Maybe someone who works in a shop can chime in here but if I'm not mistaken, all FFL's are or will be required to submit the 4473 electronically. I think it might be a federal felony for an FFL to sell a gun without a check. It's at least grounds to suspend the FFL.

cmj8591 said:

So what happens if you become a felon, subject of a domestic restraining order or court committed to a mental hospital AFTER you get your carry permit? How would the person selling you the gun know? If you are doing a 4473, then they are doing a NICS check. It's probably that you are just not seeing it. If the 4473 is done on a computer, then the NICS check is done when they hit the button to submit the form. It is almost instantaneous and the shop will get an approval or denial via the computer. Maybe someone who works in a shop can chime in here but if I'm not mistaken, all FFL's are or will be required to submit the 4473 electronically. I think it might be a federal felony for an FFL to sell a gun without a check. It's at least grounds to suspend the FFL.

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I still do paper 4473’s at several different FFL’s. One place is electronic. No call is made, I’m standing right there.

In fact, only one FFL I know does it by computer. Maybe we’re backwards here

I like things just as they are.

I’ve never been delayed even once in the past 6 years in NC. I used to get a delay half the time living in NY.

cmj8591 said:

So what happens if you become a felon, subject of a domestic restraining order or court committed to a mental hospital AFTER you get your carry permit? How would the person selling you the gun know? If you are doing a 4473, then they are doing a NICS check. It's probably that you are just not seeing it. If the 4473 is done on a computer, then the NICS check is done when they hit the button to submit the form. It is almost instantaneous and the shop will get an approval or denial via the computer. Maybe someone who works in a shop can chime in here but if I'm not mistaken, all FFL's are or will be required to submit the 4473 electronically. I think it might be a federal felony for an FFL to sell a gun without a check. It's at least grounds to suspend the FFL.

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Nope. If the state's requirements for a permit meet NICS, which about half of the states do, then no NICS check is required. Google it if you don't believe me.

cmj8591 said:

So what happens if you become a felon, subject of a domestic restraining order or court committed to a mental hospital AFTER you get your carry permit? How would the person selling you the gun know? If you are doing a 4473, then they are doing a NICS check. It's probably that you are just not seeing it. If the 4473 is done on a computer, then the NICS check is done when they hit the button to submit the form. It is almost instantaneous and the shop will get an approval or denial via the computer. Maybe someone who works in a shop can chime in here but if I'm not mistaken, all FFL's are or will be required to submit the 4473 electronically. I think it might be a federal felony for an FFL to sell a gun without a check. It's at least grounds to suspend the FFL.

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Quit getting your boxers in a bunch. I own a pawnshop in Iowa, I have had a FFL for 30+ years. By Federal law, an Iowa FFL is allowed to accept a valid Iowa Permit to Carry Weapons, or an Iowa Permit to Purchase Weapons, without a NICS check. A NICS check is done prior to issuing a permit. Until last year the permit process was the ONLY way to purchase a handgun in Iowa. I could NOT do a NICS check on a non-permit holder. And by the way an FFL is not required to do the NICS check electronically, I still call in.
Firearms laws are different in different states, there is not a one size fits all. So stop stating laws and rules you know nothing about.

pawngal said:

Quit getting your boxers in a bunch. I own a pawnshop in Iowa, I have had a FFL for 30+ years. By Federal law, an Iowa FFL is allowed to accept a valid Iowa Permit to Carry Weapons, or an Iowa Permit to Purchase Weapons, without a NICS check. A NICS check is done prior to issuing a permit. Until last year the permit process was the ONLY way to purchase a handgun in Iowa. I could NOT do a NICS check on a non-permit holder. And by the way an FFL is not required to do the NICS check electronically, I still call in.
Firearms laws are different in different states, there is not a one size fits all. So stop stating laws and rules you know nothing about.

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I wear briefs. So you need a permit to purchase a gun and a NICS check to get the permit or or you need an LIC? How does the FFL determine if the LTC is valid at the time of sale without a check? Educate me.

pawngal said:

Depends on the state, not in Iowa. I fill out the 4473, show my permit & DL, pay, and out the door with gun in hand.

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Ditto in Mississippi. Before I had my permit, I filled out the the 4473, the FFL called it in (or submitted it by computer), verified approval, I paid and left with the firearm. After I obtained my permit, I filled out the 4473, paid and left with the firearm. Pretty sure there are more states beside Iowa and Mississippi where this applies also.

I expect any permit holder convicted of a felony would have to surrender their permit immediately.

cmj8591,
I wear briefs
TMI

So you need a permit to purchase a gun
NO, it just makes it easier, no waiting

NICS check to get the permit
Yes

or you need an LIC?
Either one

How does the FFL determine if the LTC is valid at the time of sale without a check?
Not my problem. I'm not paranoid.

Bro. Dave said:

I didn't dive deep, but I wonder if states where having a handgun permit/license to carry exempts one from a NICS check have skewed the statistics. Here in Texas I simple hand my FFL my DL and LTC (License to Carry) while filling out the 4473, then walk out after paying his transfer fee.

What I don't know is if those transactions show up on these stats. As an aside, it is certainly an impetus for me to continue to have an LTC rather than rely on Constitutional Carry.

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The attached stats are for "Firearms", not just handguns.

Here in NY even if you have a full handgun carry permit you still need a NICS check.

The only time I can purchase a "gun" without a NICS is if its a C&R and I use my 03FFL. Then again, I still can't buy a C&R handgun unless I go thru a NYS handgun dealer.

I know it sounds like a hassle, but truthfully, I can buy anything I want and have it home in less than 2 hours. All I have to do is go to the right office in the county building. No waiting period and no hassle.

You are all wrong and so is the survey. The top state in gun sales by far is Massachusetts. They sold Smith & Wesson to Tennessee!!!!!

ladder13 said:

I still do paper 4473’s at several different FFL’s. One place is electronic. No call is made, I’m standing right there.

In fact, only one FFL I know does it by computer. Maybe we’re backwards here

I like things just as they are.

I’ve never been delayed even once in the past 6 years in NC. I used to get a delay half the time living in NY.

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My LGS used to do paper 4473s. After filling it out I would stand there watching him make the call and then write the approval number on the form.

Last year he upgraded to a puter and an electronic 4473. When I hit "send" he waited a second while he looked at the screen, and then handed me the gun. I asked about the phone call and he said it was done automatically and the approval came back almost instantaneously.

I have been buying guns in NY ever since the NICS went into affect. I have always been approved in less than a minute, and have walked out with the gun as soon as I paid the dealer. If someone gets delayed my suspicion is that someone with the same or similar name is not eligible, and the system needs to look further. I always give my SS#, so maybe that helps identify me better.

pawngal said:

How does the FFL determine if the LTC is valid at the time of sale without a check?
Not my problem. I'm not paranoid.

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Agreed.
NC set it up here, it’s on them, not the FFL.

GA 1911 said:

I agree:
2) I have a GWCL (Georgia Weapons Carry License) so no NICS background check is ever required. I have already had a much wider and more strict background check.

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What happens to your permit if you become a prohibited person? For example, what if your spouse gets a domestic order against you? What dose the licensing authority do?

cmj8591 said:

What happens to your permit if you become a prohibited person? For example, what if your spouse gets a domestic order against you? What dose the licensing authority do?

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If that happens most states will revoke your permit. The state will know about it as soon or sooner than NICS does. Plus, you must still fill out the 4473. All I know for sure is that it is 100% legal and approved by the ATF. Lots of states do it.

Montana Code Annotated 2021
TITLE 45. CRIMES
CHAPTER 8. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
Part 3. Weapons
Exemption Of Concealed Weapon Permittee From Federal Handgun Purchase Background Check And Waiting Period

45-8-330. (Temporary) Exemption of concealed weapon permittee from federal handgun purchase background check and waiting period. A person possessing a concealed weapon permit is:

(1) considered to have a permit constituting completion of the background check required by 18 U.S.C. 921 through 925A; and

(2) exempt from that act's 5-day waiting period for the purchase of a handgun. (Subsections (1) and (2) terminate contingent on the elimination of federal statutory or case law requirements--sec. 5, Ch. 408, L. 1995.)


I do not understand why you seem to have a problem with it. I get it that you suffer under the rules of a totalitarian state, but, that is your choice.

It is similar to Federal "Gun Free Zones". Those do not apply to me here in Montana. Because, Montana has given its legal citizens a License to do so in order to nullify that federal law.

Montana Code Annotated 2021
TITLE 45. CRIMES
CHAPTER 8. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
Part 3. Weapons
Establishment Of Individual Licensure

45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.

pawngal said:

Depends on the state, not in Iowa. I fill out the 4473, show my permit & DL, pay, and out the door with gun in hand.

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MS is the same way.

cmj8591 said:

What happens to your permit if you become a prohibited person? For example, what if your spouse gets a domestic order against you? What dose the licensing authority do?

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Would you just give it up! I'm beginning to think you are against the rights that some states have compared to your state.
As an FFL holder and a CC permit holder I am totally within the laws of my state and those laws are approved at the federal level as they are in many states. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

pawngal said:

Would you just give it up! I'm beginning to think you are against the rights that some states have compared to your state.
As an FFL holder and a CC permit holder I am totally within the laws of my state and those laws are approved at the federal level as they are in many states. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you.

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You have no clue about what or who I am so you really shouldn't make assumptions about what I believe in. I'm trying to make sense of something that really doesn't make any sense to me. That's why I'm asking the questions. That's kind of what forums are for. You ask questions and have discussions and hopefully people share their experiences and you can come to some kind of conclusion about your question. In your case, you seem to be more interested about virtue signaling about how much more pro gun you are than me or your state is to compared to mine. My questions, and I think my comments, don't have anything to do with arguing about gun control. I'm trying to figure out about the mechanism of how LTC's and FFL's in other than where I live deal with persons who become prohibited persons after they receive their license. Maybe where you are, people comply with the letter of the law and turn in their LTC when required so when someone shows up with their little card, you don't need to check. Maybe you don't care and anyone with a card and some greenbacks walks out with a gun. I don't know and I am certainly not going to make that assumption about how you operate. It just seems disingenuous that a 5 year old background check and the assumption that everyone who becomes prohibited will actually turn in their LTC complies with the Federal law. That's why I am having a hard time understanding. To think that anyone who asks this question is somehow anti gun or anti freedom is nonsense.

cmj8591 said:

You have no clue about what or who I am so you really shouldn't make assumptions about what I believe in. I'm trying to make sense of something that really doesn't make any sense to me. That's why I'm asking the questions. That's kind of what forums are for. You ask questions and have discussions and hopefully people share their experiences and you can come to some kind of conclusion about your question. In your case, you seem to be more interested about virtue signaling about how much more pro gun you are than me or your state is to compared to mine. My questions, and I think my comments, don't have anything to do with arguing about gun control. I'm trying to figure out about the mechanism of how LTC's and FFL's in other than where I live deal with persons who become prohibited persons after they receive their license. Maybe where you are, people comply with the letter of the law and turn in their LTC when required so when someone shows up with their little card, you don't need to check. Maybe you don't care and anyone with a card and some greenbacks walks out with a gun. I don't know and I am certainly not going to make that assumption about how you operate. It just seems disingenuous that a 5 year old background check and the assumption that everyone who becomes prohibited will actually turn in their LTC complies with the Federal law. That's why I am having a hard time understanding. To think that anyone who asks this question is somehow anti gun or anti freedom is nonsense.

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I never said you were an anti anything. Laws are different in different states and that has been pointed out to you by various posters, not just me. You need to accept it.
Locally, LE is proactive on seizing a permit card when someone is charged with a crime that would make them a prohibited person. I personally know of 2 recent cases, one never got their card back, the other did after the charges were either reduced or dropped.
Your Massachusetts LTC is valid in Iowa, my Iowa license is not valid in Massachusetts, Why?? State laws.

What if what if? What if they use someone else's ID? What if they use a fake ID. What if they don't have a permit and they buy a gun before NICS is informed by a local or state authority? What if the have a permit and 20 guns and become a prohibited person, who makes sure they take all the persons guns?? What if they buy a gun person to person whether that it legal in that state or not? What if they buy a ghost gun and assemble it?

The what if trap. People worrying about what the criminal minority will do and trying to pass laws believing such people will some how obey them are the reason we have tons of stupid laws. NEWS FLASH. The murder rate has not gone down since the GCA of 1968

You say you want to understand how the law and the complexities of law works???

Go figure out how the vast majority of gun laws are not an INFRINGEMENT of the PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.

Here is another puzzle for you. Montana allows gun sales with no check if you have a permit, you can carry concealed without a permit at 18, face to face sales between individuals are legal, guns are seen for sale at garage sales and street fairs and the report shows over 18 sales per 1000 people are know to have occurred and I assure you there were many more. Yet, they average an INTENTIONAL homicide rate of about 3.5. A bit higher than MA, with all its rules, about the same as New Jersey with its strict gun laws, lower than New York and way under Washington DC, which has strict gun laws and an INTENTIONAL homicide rate over 20.

Club Gun Fan said:

You are all wrong and so is the survey. The top state in gun sales by far is Massachusetts. They sold Smith & Wesson to Tennessee!!!!!

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I'd argue that Mass GAVE it away, rather than sold it! In the long run they'll have PAID TN to take it when those jobs and tax revenues head down the pike.

steelslaver said:

Here is another puzzle for you. Montana allows gun sales with no check if you have a permit, you can carry concealed without a permit at 18, face to face sales between individuals are legal, guns are seen for sale at garage sales and street fairs and the report shows over 18 sales per 1000 people are know to have occurred and I assure you there were many more. Yet, they average an INTENTIONAL homicide rate of about 3.5. A bit higher than MA, with all its rules, about the same as New Jersey with its strict gun laws, lower than New York and way under Washington DC, which has strict gun laws and an INTENTIONAL homicide rate over 20.

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It's not a puzzle really. Montana has less people spread over more space. Your population is probably less "diverse" than those urban areas. With all sorts of different people living on top of each other the opportunity for crime is higher in those urban areas. That's the main difference between here and where you are. People are the same everywhere, for the most part, so you are going to have crime no matter where you go. We have great people here, just like you do. You have evil people where you are, just like we do. And believe it or not, we have a very strong pro gun community here. So when you look at crime rates and things designed to quantify crime, you have to keep it in context. When they report crime statistics, they try to put everything on a level field by using per capita numbers but even that doesn't tell the whole story. I spent 39 years as a police officer in this humanitarian soup in Eastern Mass. so I think I have a pretty good idea about how laws and the legal system work. I don't know your background or how much of your life you have spent in urban areas but I think I could probably show you some things from angles that you never thought about. The NICS system is hugely complicated and even having spent the bulk of my life in LE, it sometimes becomes difficult to understand its application from state to state. My problem is when people take questions about it as some kind of assault on their gun rights. I don't get that. I didn't make any of these rules. I just have a curiosity about how it works in other places. I'm not sure how that makes me anti anything.

It would require more typing than I'm willing to get into to address all of your "what if" questions. I will try to give you a little overview of how NICS works here. That might make you understand why I'm asking the questions. Every gun dealer in the state is required to be electronically connected to the Dept. of Public Safety. They are the controlling agency for gun sales. Mass. uses the FBI database for their NICS. When a person appears in court, the court is connected to the DPS also. (This is a bit of an over simplification but it will give you an idea) Lets say a judge issues a domestic restraining order. The court will communicate the order to DPS and they send it on to the FBI data base and to the issuing police department. This is done real time. You are required by law to surrender any guns and permits to your local police department. Believe it or not, not everyone plays by the rules and does this. So, if you walk out of the court hearing and into the gun shop next door to buy a gun with your now invalid LTC, when the LGS submits the electronic transfer to the DPS and NICS, the sale will be denied. (Again, this is an over simplification and there are a few more steps to the process.) This is why I'm having a hard time understanding how a background check that was done maybe 5 years ago can comply with the "instant" part of NICS. I'm not finding fault with it, I'm trying to understand how it works.