Gun Sales By State

[Tom S.]

@cmj8591: I'm curious why you would think it's OK to take someone's guns away based on a restraining order alone. I have seen restraining orders that would justify disarming someone, and I have seen restraining orders that were nothing more than a vengeful person trying to make life difficult for someone else and when examined, had no basis in fact.

Regardless, as was explained, all states who issue licenses (the actual nomenclature can very from state to state) and whose licenses have been deemed by the Federal government to suffice in place of a NICS check, also have the means to revoke said licenses and thus nullify the ability to bypass the NICS process.

 

[cmj8591]

@cmj8591: I'm curious why you would think it's OK to take someone's guns away based on a restraining order alone. I have seen restraining orders that would justify disarming someone, and I have seen restraining orders that were nothing more than a vengeful person trying to make life difficult for someone else and when examined, had no basis in fact.

Regardless, as was explained, all states who issue licenses (the actual nomenclature can very from state to state) and whose licenses have been deemed by the Federal government to suffice in place of a NICS check, also have the means to revoke said licenses and thus nullify the ability to bypass the NICS process.

I'll answer your question with a question. Why do you think that I think it's OK to take someones guns as a result of a restraining order? When did I say that? Ma. law requires that the subject of a restraining order turn in their guns and license to the police. Where in any of my posts did I say I agree with it?

Yes, they have the means to revoke the license. That is not a question. The question, my question is, how is that revocation communicated to the point of sale so that the FFL knows the person is prohibited? Is it communicated to the FFL at all?

 

[glenwolde]

So what happens if you become a felon, subject of a domestic restraining order or court committed to a mental hospital AFTER you get your carry permit? How would the person selling you the gun know? If you are doing a 4473, then they are doing a NICS check. It's probably that you are just not seeing it. If the 4473 is done on a computer, then the NICS check is done when they hit the button to submit the form. It is almost instantaneous and the shop will get an approval or denial via the computer. Maybe someone who works in a shop can chime in here but if I'm not mistaken, all FFL's are or will be required to submit the 4473 electronically. I think it might be a federal felony for an FFL to sell a gun without a check. It's at least grounds to suspend the FFL.

Nope. If you live in a "Permanent Brady Permit" state you do not go through the NICS. I've used electronic systems from the sell side and there was a way to indicate to bypass the NICS check if a "Permanent Brady" document was presented.

Permanent Brady Permit Chart | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives

Some states may show up with unusually high background checks precisely because they are using the system to check existing permit holders for violations post-issue.

In Texas, which is a Permanent Brady State, the first thing you do for a sale is go check the State website to verify the LTC is still good.

Texas License to Carry

 

[Deuce Caboose]

To be a conservative, and a law abiding gun owner in Massachusetts may seem to some to be counter intuitive. Gun owners here must understand, or at least, try to understand, the ever changing complexities of state law. A daunting prospect, to say the least. Gun owners here, work harder in this regard, because we have to. We are galvanized in the expression of our 2nd amendment rights, because we are aware just how easily they could be lost.
Knowing the rules for our expression of these rights is essential.
As they say, violate the rules at your own peril.

 

[cmj8591]

Nope. If you live in a "Permanent Brady Permit" state you do not go through the NICS. I've used electronic systems from the sell side and there was a way to indicate to bypass the NICS check if a "Permanent Brady" document was presented.

In Texas, which is a Permanent Brady State, the first thing you do for a sale is go check the State website to verify the LTC is still good.

Finally, some type of answer! Thank you! Maybe I'm asking it wrong when I use the term NICS.

 

[cmj8591]

To be a conservative, and a law abiding gun owner in Massachusetts may seem to some to be counter intuitive. Gun owners here must understand, or at least, try to understand, the ever changing complexities of state law. A daunting prospect, to say the least. Gun owners here, work harder in this regard, because we have to. We are galvanized in the expression of our 2nd amendment rights, because we are aware just how easily they could be lost.
Knowing the rules for our expression of these rights is essential.
As they say, violate the rules at your own peril.

There are more than you think. Our problem is that the politics are controlled by inside the 128 beltway. Once you get outside of that area, it is mostly conservative and pro 2nd amendment.

 

[59yukon01]

Nice to see the people of my state of Kentucky fully exercising their 2nd amendment rights.

I work at a gun store and range and I can confirm guns sales are not slowing down.

Considering the last two years of complete and utter BS here in America it's no surprise.

 

[Tom S.]

I'll answer your question with a question. Why do you think that I think it's OK to take someones guns as a result of a restraining order? When did I say that? Ma. law requires that the subject of a restraining order turn in their guns and license to the police. Where in any of my posts did I say I agree with it?

Yes, they have the means to revoke the license. That is not a question. The question, my question is, how is that revocation communicated to the point of sale so that the FFL knows the person is prohibited? Is it communicated to the FFL at all?

If you re-read your post #41, it sounds like a ringing endorsement for MA's laws. So, do you agree with confiscation and prohibition of purchase when a PPO is issued or not?

I can't answer for all states whose licensees meet the NICS criteria, but in Michigan, when your permit is revoked, you are directed to surrender it.

 

[CH4]

My last 10 or 15 have not been run through the FBI because of CCW permit. When I'm in rural shops 50 to 75% have a CCW, in town it runs around 50%. I think Ohio is doing just fine!

Ivan

Same here I NV. No backgrounds on CCW holders. Interestingly, if you're active or retired LE without a CCW but LEOSA creds, you're subject to background checks at $25 a pop.

 

[cmj8591]

If you re-read your post #41, it sounds like a ringing endorsement for MA's laws. So, do you agree with confiscation and prohibition of purchase when a PPO is issued or not?

I can't answer for all states whose licensees meet the NICS criteria, but in Michigan, when your permit is revoked, you are directed to surrender it.

No, I don't agree that a persons guns should automatically be taken when a domestic restraining order is issued. I'm not sure what you are seeing in that post, but I think you are reading into it. Without getting into the process of getting an order here, let me say that almost all of them are granted regardless of how valid the complaint is. Let me say that again, I DO NOT AGREE THAT A PERSONS GUNS SHOULD BE AUTOMATICALLY TAKEN WHEN A DOMESTIC ORDER ISSUES! There are a lot of dead people who were stabbed, beaten, run over, burned to death while holding a copy of a domestic order. I don't believe that the confiscation aspect has saved anyone. Getting back to the mechanics of the law and one of my points, in Michigan, when you are directed to turn in your permit, how does an FFL seller know that the person did turn it in? We heard from Texas where they require the seller to contact the state to see if the LTC is valid. What do they do in Michigan?

 

[ladder13]

I know of two people who lost their right to own a gun.

A little background, both were in NYS. In most areas north of NYC, like where I lived, you are issued a permit by a County Judge, after an investigation by the CLEO in that jurisdiction, most likely the Sheriff.

I knew one guy who lost his for a DWI.
Another for having child porn on his computer. He was arrested by the FBI.

In both cases, felonies, the local CLEO was notified, who then notified the issueing authority, the County Judge.

Our judge was very very pro 2nd, but he revoked their permits. I don't know if the permits were turned in, but I'm sure NICS was aware. I know the guns themselves were turned in.

NY is MAY issue, they can take your permit for things like "moral indiscretions". Or not issue one in the first place.

hth

 

[CALREB]

Funny CH4, I get the same sour look all the time here in TX, when I tell the dealer I DON'T have an LTC. Then I look at my retired ID which states CCW APPROVED and is renewed every 5 years after a NICS check,and yearly quals but doesnt count. I dont mind the forms,cost and wait nearly as much as they seem to. Almost every one tells me (you should get an LTC) I just shake my head, WHY... to make your job easier. I dont buy very many guns from dealers anyway.

CMJ8591 Thanks for taking the hit, I always wondered how the LTC thing worked.

Glenwolde thanks for providing an answer.

 

[GypsmJim]

I know of two people who lost their right to own a gun.

A little background, both were in NYS. In most areas north of NYC, like where I lived, you are issued a permit by a County Judge, after an investigation by the CLEO in that jurisdiction, most likely the Sheriff.

I knew one guy who lost his for a DWI.
Another for having child porn on his computer. He was arrested by the FBI.

In both cases, felonies, the local CLEO was notified, who then notified the issueing authority, the County Judge.

Our judge was very very pro 2nd, but he revoked their permits. I don't know if the permits were turned in, but I'm sure NICS was aware. I know the guns themselves were turned in.

NY is MAY issue, they can take your permit for things like "moral indiscretions". Or not issue one in the first place.

hth

In NY, DWI or pedophilia are grounds to not get a permit in the first place.

Having a clean record will get you a permit everywhere (except NY City area), but some county judges will restrict you to target shooting and hunting if you are deemed to not need to carry all the time. When I got my DBA and started a business, I reapplied and said I needed to take cash to the bank, I was immediately upgraded with no hassle.

Maybe having a DWI ain't such a bad reason to kick you out.

 

[cmj8591]

CMJ8591 Thanks for taking the hit, I always wondered how the LTC thing worked.

I never thought it was such a touchy question.

 

[pawngal]

I never thought it was such a touchy question.

You made it that way
Your post #12
I think they are still required to do a NICS check if the sale went through an FFL even if a back ground check was done when you received your carry permit.

Your post #19
NICS is a federal requirement. Are you telling me that you buy guns from FFL's without a NICS check?

Your post #21
So what happens if you become a felon, subject of a domestic restraining order or court committed to a mental hospital AFTER you get your carry permit? How would the person selling you the gun know? If you are doing a 4473, then they are doing a NICS check. It's probably that you are just not seeing it. If the 4473 is done on a computer, then the NICS check is done when they hit the button to submit the form. It is almost instantaneous and the shop will get an approval or denial via the computer. Maybe someone who works in a shop can chime in here but if I'm not mistaken, all FFL's are or will be required to submit the 4473 electronically. I think it might be a federal felony for an FFL to sell a gun without a check. It's at least grounds to suspend the FFL.

And so on ad nauseum.

Why doesn't Massachusetts honor ANY other states LTC? (CC permit or whatever you want to call)

 

[Muss Muggins]

I'm gonna reluctantly weigh in here, because it seems tensions are running high. I'm lately trying to stay out of the "somebody is wrong on the Internet" fights, but maybe I can help.

A: Several states allow face to face sales between consenting adults, the only requirement being that the seller not "knowingly" transfer the firearm to a prohibited person. Missouri is such a state. I use a bill of sale, which has the 4473 questions, and directly ask the buyer, are you prohibited from purchasing and possessing firearms or ammunition?

2: Several states allow the holder of a concealed carry permit to purchase a firearm from an FFL without undergoing a NICS check. Some require filling out the 4473, and maybe all.

The process for revoking a CCP in the several states I'm sure is not automatic. Since the FFL, I think, and I could be wrong, has no avenue to instantly verify the veracity of a particular CCP, I'm sure that occasionally some purchases slip thru the cracks. Since I'm also sure that such a purchase used in a crime would instantly become national news, I believe it to be rare.

iii: Illinois, I'm sure not alone, requires a Firearm Owner Identification Card be presented along with a completed 4473. Adjacent states also require Illinois residents present a FOID to purchase a long gun. I've seen it done.

It's not a perfect process. It varies by the vagaries of state regulation. Those from other states should refrain from calling out states that they aren't familiar with. For every what if question asked by some well meaning cow chip kicker on an Internet forum, I can guarantee that those in charge of regulation have answered 20 additional and more pertinent what if questions.

E'erbody relax . . .

 

[59yukon01]

I do 4473 compliance at our store. In KY if a CDWL is current and the address matches that of their current KY DL or state issued photo ID we can use that in lieu of a background check.

 

[steelslaver]

It's not a perfect process. It varies by the vagaries of state regulation. Those from other states should refrain from calling out states that they aren't familiar with. For every what if question asked by some well meaning cow chip kicker on an Internet forum, I can guarantee that those in charge of regulation have answered 20 additional and more pertinent what if questions.

E'erbody relax . . .

Here is something you may want to "Duly Note"

Out west we are taught that it is a lot better to be known as a "cow chip kicker" than just a "chip".

 

[cmj8591]

Why doesn't Massachusetts honor ANY other states LTC? (CC permit or whatever you want to call)

I often wonder that myself. From reading a lot of these responses, it seems that there is no way to verify, real time, if a permit form another state is really valid. I'm going to guess that has a lot to do with it.

 

[Muss Muggins]

In Missouri, tossing them is an event at the State Fair in Sedalia . . .

Here is something you may want to "Duly Note"

Out west we are taught that it is a lot better to be known as a "cow chip kicker" than just a "chip".