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Gun Sales By State
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cmj8591
Member
What happens to your permit if you become a prohibited person? For example, what if your spouse gets a domestic order against you? What dose the licensing authority do?
If that happens most states will revoke your permit. The state will know about it as soon or sooner than NICS does. Plus, you must still fill out the 4473. All I know for sure is that it is 100% legal and approved by the ATF. Lots of states do it.
Montana Code Annotated 2021
TITLE 45. CRIMES
CHAPTER 8. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
Part 3. Weapons
Exemption Of Concealed Weapon Permittee From Federal Handgun Purchase Background Check And Waiting Period
45-8-330. (Temporary) Exemption of concealed weapon permittee from federal handgun purchase background check and waiting period. A person possessing a concealed weapon permit is:
(1) considered to have a permit constituting completion of the background check required by 18 U.S.C. 921 through 925A; and
(2) exempt from that act's 5-day waiting period for the purchase of a handgun. (Subsections (1) and (2) terminate contingent on the elimination of federal statutory or case law requirements--sec. 5, Ch. 408, L. 1995.)
I do not understand why you seem to have a problem with it. I get it that you suffer under the rules of a totalitarian state, but, that is your choice.
It is similar to Federal "Gun Free Zones". Those do not apply to me here in Montana. Because, Montana has given its legal citizens a License to do so in order to nullify that federal law.
Montana Code Annotated 2021
TITLE 45. CRIMES
CHAPTER 8. OFFENSES AGAINST PUBLIC ORDER
Part 3. Weapons
Establishment Of Individual Licensure
45-8-360. Establishment of individual licensure. In consideration that the right to keep and bear arms is protected and reserved to the people in Article II, section 12, of the Montana constitution, a person who has not been convicted of a violent, felony crime and who is lawfully able to own or to possess a firearm under the Montana constitution is considered to be individually licensed and verified by the state of Montana within the meaning of the provisions regarding individual licensure and verification in the federal Gun-Free School Zones Act.
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22lrfan
Member
MS is the same way.
Would you just give it up! I'm beginning to think you are against the rights that some states have compared to your state.
As an FFL holder and a CC permit holder I am totally within the laws of my state and those laws are approved at the federal level as they are in many states. This has been repeatedly pointed out to you.
cmj8591
Member
You have no clue about what or who I am so you really shouldn't make assumptions about what I believe in. I'm trying to make sense of something that really doesn't make any sense to me. That's why I'm asking the questions. That's kind of what forums are for. You ask questions and have discussions and hopefully people share their experiences and you can come to some kind of conclusion about your question. In your case, you seem to be more interested about virtue signaling about how much more pro gun you are than me or your state is to compared to mine. My questions, and I think my comments, don't have anything to do with arguing about gun control. I'm trying to figure out about the mechanism of how LTC's and FFL's in other than where I live deal with persons who become prohibited persons after they receive their license. Maybe where you are, people comply with the letter of the law and turn in their LTC when required so when someone shows up with their little card, you don't need to check. Maybe you don't care and anyone with a card and some greenbacks walks out with a gun. I don't know and I am certainly not going to make that assumption about how you operate. It just seems disingenuous that a 5 year old background check and the assumption that everyone who becomes prohibited will actually turn in their LTC complies with the Federal law. That's why I am having a hard time understanding. To think that anyone who asks this question is somehow anti gun or anti freedom is nonsense.
I never said you were an anti anything. Laws are different in different states and that has been pointed out to you by various posters, not just me. You need to accept it.
Locally, LE is proactive on seizing a permit card when someone is charged with a crime that would make them a prohibited person. I personally know of 2 recent cases, one never got their card back, the other did after the charges were either reduced or dropped.
Your Massachusetts LTC is valid in Iowa, my Iowa license is not valid in Massachusetts, Why?? State laws.
What if what if? What if they use someone else's ID? What if they use a fake ID. What if they don't have a permit and they buy a gun before NICS is informed by a local or state authority? What if the have a permit and 20 guns and become a prohibited person, who makes sure they take all the persons guns?? What if they buy a gun person to person whether that it legal in that state or not? What if they buy a ghost gun and assemble it?
The what if trap. People worrying about what the criminal minority will do and trying to pass laws believing such people will some how obey them are the reason we have tons of stupid laws. NEWS FLASH. The murder rate has not gone down since the GCA of 1968
You say you want to understand how the law and the complexities of law works???
Go figure out how the vast majority of gun laws are not an INFRINGEMENT of the PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.
Here is another puzzle for you. Montana allows gun sales with no check if you have a permit, you can carry concealed without a permit at 18, face to face sales between individuals are legal, guns are seen for sale at garage sales and street fairs and the report shows over 18 sales per 1000 people are know to have occurred and I assure you there were many more. Yet, they average an INTENTIONAL homicide rate of about 3.5. A bit higher than MA, with all its rules, about the same as New Jersey with its strict gun laws, lower than New York and way under Washington DC, which has strict gun laws and an INTENTIONAL homicide rate over 20.
The what if trap. People worrying about what the criminal minority will do and trying to pass laws believing such people will some how obey them are the reason we have tons of stupid laws. NEWS FLASH. The murder rate has not gone down since the GCA of 1968
You say you want to understand how the law and the complexities of law works???
Go figure out how the vast majority of gun laws are not an INFRINGEMENT of the PEOPLE'S RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS.
Here is another puzzle for you. Montana allows gun sales with no check if you have a permit, you can carry concealed without a permit at 18, face to face sales between individuals are legal, guns are seen for sale at garage sales and street fairs and the report shows over 18 sales per 1000 people are know to have occurred and I assure you there were many more. Yet, they average an INTENTIONAL homicide rate of about 3.5. A bit higher than MA, with all its rules, about the same as New Jersey with its strict gun laws, lower than New York and way under Washington DC, which has strict gun laws and an INTENTIONAL homicide rate over 20.
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I'd argue that Mass GAVE it away, rather than sold it! In the long run they'll have PAID TN to take it when those jobs and tax revenues head down the pike.
cmj8591
Member
It's not a puzzle really. Montana has less people spread over more space. Your population is probably less "diverse" than those urban areas. With all sorts of different people living on top of each other the opportunity for crime is higher in those urban areas. That's the main difference between here and where you are. People are the same everywhere, for the most part, so you are going to have crime no matter where you go. We have great people here, just like you do. You have evil people where you are, just like we do. And believe it or not, we have a very strong pro gun community here. So when you look at crime rates and things designed to quantify crime, you have to keep it in context. When they report crime statistics, they try to put everything on a level field by using per capita numbers but even that doesn't tell the whole story. I spent 39 years as a police officer in this humanitarian soup in Eastern Mass. so I think I have a pretty good idea about how laws and the legal system work. I don't know your background or how much of your life you have spent in urban areas but I think I could probably show you some things from angles that you never thought about. The NICS system is hugely complicated and even having spent the bulk of my life in LE, it sometimes becomes difficult to understand its application from state to state. My problem is when people take questions about it as some kind of assault on their gun rights. I don't get that. I didn't make any of these rules. I just have a curiosity about how it works in other places. I'm not sure how that makes me anti anything.
It would require more typing than I'm willing to get into to address all of your "what if" questions. I will try to give you a little overview of how NICS works here. That might make you understand why I'm asking the questions. Every gun dealer in the state is required to be electronically connected to the Dept. of Public Safety. They are the controlling agency for gun sales. Mass. uses the FBI database for their NICS. When a person appears in court, the court is connected to the DPS also. (This is a bit of an over simplification but it will give you an idea) Lets say a judge issues a domestic restraining order. The court will communicate the order to DPS and they send it on to the FBI data base and to the issuing police department. This is done real time. You are required by law to surrender any guns and permits to your local police department. Believe it or not, not everyone plays by the rules and does this. So, if you walk out of the court hearing and into the gun shop next door to buy a gun with your now invalid LTC, when the LGS submits the electronic transfer to the DPS and NICS, the sale will be denied. (Again, this is an over simplification and there are a few more steps to the process.) This is why I'm having a hard time understanding how a background check that was done maybe 5 years ago can comply with the "instant" part of NICS. I'm not finding fault with it, I'm trying to understand how it works.
@cmj8591: I'm curious why you would think it's OK to take someone's guns away based on a restraining order alone. I have seen restraining orders that would justify disarming someone, and I have seen restraining orders that were nothing more than a vengeful person trying to make life difficult for someone else and when examined, had no basis in fact.
Regardless, as was explained, all states who issue licenses (the actual nomenclature can very from state to state) and whose licenses have been deemed by the Federal government to suffice in place of a NICS check, also have the means to revoke said licenses and thus nullify the ability to bypass the NICS process.
Regardless, as was explained, all states who issue licenses (the actual nomenclature can very from state to state) and whose licenses have been deemed by the Federal government to suffice in place of a NICS check, also have the means to revoke said licenses and thus nullify the ability to bypass the NICS process.
cmj8591
Member
I'll answer your question with a question. Why do you think that I think it's OK to take someones guns as a result of a restraining order? When did I say that? Ma. law requires that the subject of a restraining order turn in their guns and license to the police. Where in any of my posts did I say I agree with it?
Yes, they have the means to revoke the license. That is not a question. The question, my question is, how is that revocation communicated to the point of sale so that the FFL knows the person is prohibited? Is it communicated to the FFL at all?
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Nope. If you live in a "Permanent Brady Permit" state you do not go through the NICS. I've used electronic systems from the sell side and there was a way to indicate to bypass the NICS check if a "Permanent Brady" document was presented.
Permanent Brady Permit Chart | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives
Some states may show up with unusually high background checks precisely because they are using the system to check existing permit holders for violations post-issue.
In Texas, which is a Permanent Brady State, the first thing you do for a sale is go check the State website to verify the LTC is still good.
Texas License to Carry
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Deuce Caboose
Member
To be a conservative, and a law abiding gun owner in Massachusetts may seem to some to be counter intuitive. Gun owners here must understand, or at least, try to understand, the ever changing complexities of state law. A daunting prospect, to say the least. Gun owners here, work harder in this regard, because we have to. We are galvanized in the expression of our 2nd amendment rights, because we are aware just how easily they could be lost.
Knowing the rules for our expression of these rights is essential.
As they say, violate the rules at your own peril.
Knowing the rules for our expression of these rights is essential.
As they say, violate the rules at your own peril.
cmj8591
Member
Finally, some type of answer! Thank you! Maybe I'm asking it wrong when I use the term NICS.
cmj8591
Member
There are more than you think. Our problem is that the politics are controlled by inside the 128 beltway. Once you get outside of that area, it is mostly conservative and pro 2nd amendment.
Nice to see the people of my state of Kentucky fully exercising their 2nd amendment rights.
I work at a gun store and range and I can confirm guns sales are not slowing down.
Considering the last two years of complete and utter BS here in America it's no surprise.
I work at a gun store and range and I can confirm guns sales are not slowing down.
Considering the last two years of complete and utter BS here in America it's no surprise.
If you re-read your post #41, it sounds like a ringing endorsement for MA's laws. So, do you agree with confiscation and prohibition of purchase when a PPO is issued or not?
I can't answer for all states whose licensees meet the NICS criteria, but in Michigan, when your permit is revoked, you are directed to surrender it.
Same here I NV. No backgrounds on CCW holders. Interestingly, if you're active or retired LE without a CCW but LEOSA creds, you're subject to background checks at $25 a pop.
cmj8591
Member
No, I don't agree that a persons guns should automatically be taken when a domestic restraining order is issued. I'm not sure what you are seeing in that post, but I think you are reading into it. Without getting into the process of getting an order here, let me say that almost all of them are granted regardless of how valid the complaint is. Let me say that again, I DO NOT AGREE THAT A PERSONS GUNS SHOULD BE AUTOMATICALLY TAKEN WHEN A DOMESTIC ORDER ISSUES! There are a lot of dead people who were stabbed, beaten, run over, burned to death while holding a copy of a domestic order. I don't believe that the confiscation aspect has saved anyone. Getting back to the mechanics of the law and one of my points, in Michigan, when you are directed to turn in your permit, how does an FFL seller know that the person did turn it in? We heard from Texas where they require the seller to contact the state to see if the LTC is valid. What do they do in Michigan?
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I know of two people who lost their right to own a gun.
A little background, both were in NYS. In most areas north of NYC, like where I lived, you are issued a permit by a County Judge, after an investigation by the CLEO in that jurisdiction, most likely the Sheriff.
I knew one guy who lost his for a DWI.
Another for having child porn on his computer. He was arrested by the FBI.
In both cases, felonies, the local CLEO was notified, who then notified the issueing authority, the County Judge.
Our judge was very very pro 2nd, but he revoked their permits. I don't know if the permits were turned in, but I'm sure NICS was aware. I know the guns themselves were turned in.
NY is MAY issue, they can take your permit for things like "moral indiscretions". Or not issue one in the first place.
hth
A little background, both were in NYS. In most areas north of NYC, like where I lived, you are issued a permit by a County Judge, after an investigation by the CLEO in that jurisdiction, most likely the Sheriff.
I knew one guy who lost his for a DWI.
Another for having child porn on his computer. He was arrested by the FBI.
In both cases, felonies, the local CLEO was notified, who then notified the issueing authority, the County Judge.
Our judge was very very pro 2nd, but he revoked their permits. I don't know if the permits were turned in, but I'm sure NICS was aware. I know the guns themselves were turned in.
NY is MAY issue, they can take your permit for things like "moral indiscretions". Or not issue one in the first place.
hth
Funny CH4, I get the same sour look all the time here in TX, when I tell the dealer I DON'T have an LTC. Then I look at my retired ID which states CCW APPROVED and is renewed every 5 years after a NICS check,and yearly quals but doesnt count. I dont mind the forms,cost and wait nearly as much as they seem to. Almost every one tells me (you should get an LTC) I just shake my head, WHY... to make your job easier. I dont buy very many guns from dealers anyway.
CMJ8591 Thanks for taking the hit, I always wondered how the LTC thing worked.
Glenwolde thanks for providing an answer.
CMJ8591 Thanks for taking the hit, I always wondered how the LTC thing worked.
Glenwolde thanks for providing an answer.
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GypsmJim
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In NY, DWI or pedophilia are grounds to not get a permit in the first place.
Having a clean record will get you a permit everywhere (except NY City area), but some county judges will restrict you to target shooting and hunting if you are deemed to not need to carry all the time. When I got my DBA and started a business, I reapplied and said I needed to take cash to the bank, I was immediately upgraded with no hassle.
Maybe having a DWI ain't such a bad reason to kick you out.
cmj8591
Member
I never thought it was such a touchy question.
You made it that way
Your post #12
I think they are still required to do a NICS check if the sale went through an FFL even if a back ground check was done when you received your carry permit.
Your post #19
NICS is a federal requirement. Are you telling me that you buy guns from FFL's without a NICS check?
Your post #21
So what happens if you become a felon, subject of a domestic restraining order or court committed to a mental hospital AFTER you get your carry permit? How would the person selling you the gun know? If you are doing a 4473, then they are doing a NICS check. It's probably that you are just not seeing it. If the 4473 is done on a computer, then the NICS check is done when they hit the button to submit the form. It is almost instantaneous and the shop will get an approval or denial via the computer. Maybe someone who works in a shop can chime in here but if I'm not mistaken, all FFL's are or will be required to submit the 4473 electronically. I think it might be a federal felony for an FFL to sell a gun without a check. It's at least grounds to suspend the FFL.
And so on ad nauseum.
Why doesn't Massachusetts honor ANY other states LTC? (CC permit or whatever you want to call)
I'm gonna reluctantly weigh in here, because it seems tensions are running high. I'm lately trying to stay out of the "somebody is wrong on the Internet" fights, but maybe I can help.
A: Several states allow face to face sales between consenting adults, the only requirement being that the seller not "knowingly" transfer the firearm to a prohibited person. Missouri is such a state. I use a bill of sale, which has the 4473 questions, and directly ask the buyer, are you prohibited from purchasing and possessing firearms or ammunition?
2: Several states allow the holder of a concealed carry permit to purchase a firearm from an FFL without undergoing a NICS check. Some require filling out the 4473, and maybe all.
The process for revoking a CCP in the several states I'm sure is not automatic. Since the FFL, I think, and I could be wrong, has no avenue to instantly verify the veracity of a particular CCP, I'm sure that occasionally some purchases slip thru the cracks. Since I'm also sure that such a purchase used in a crime would instantly become national news, I believe it to be rare.
iii: Illinois, I'm sure not alone, requires a Firearm Owner Identification Card be presented along with a completed 4473. Adjacent states also require Illinois residents present a FOID to purchase a long gun. I've seen it done.
It's not a perfect process. It varies by the vagaries of state regulation. Those from other states should refrain from calling out states that they aren't familiar with. For every what if question asked by some well meaning cow chip kicker on an Internet forum, I can guarantee that those in charge of regulation have answered 20 additional and more pertinent what if questions.
E'erbody relax . . .
A: Several states allow face to face sales between consenting adults, the only requirement being that the seller not "knowingly" transfer the firearm to a prohibited person. Missouri is such a state. I use a bill of sale, which has the 4473 questions, and directly ask the buyer, are you prohibited from purchasing and possessing firearms or ammunition?
2: Several states allow the holder of a concealed carry permit to purchase a firearm from an FFL without undergoing a NICS check. Some require filling out the 4473, and maybe all.
The process for revoking a CCP in the several states I'm sure is not automatic. Since the FFL, I think, and I could be wrong, has no avenue to instantly verify the veracity of a particular CCP, I'm sure that occasionally some purchases slip thru the cracks. Since I'm also sure that such a purchase used in a crime would instantly become national news, I believe it to be rare.
iii: Illinois, I'm sure not alone, requires a Firearm Owner Identification Card be presented along with a completed 4473. Adjacent states also require Illinois residents present a FOID to purchase a long gun. I've seen it done.
It's not a perfect process. It varies by the vagaries of state regulation. Those from other states should refrain from calling out states that they aren't familiar with. For every what if question asked by some well meaning cow chip kicker on an Internet forum, I can guarantee that those in charge of regulation have answered 20 additional and more pertinent what if questions.
E'erbody relax . . .
Here is something you may want to "Duly Note"
Out west we are taught that it is a lot better to be known as a "cow chip kicker" than just a "chip".
cmj8591
Member
I often wonder that myself. From reading a lot of these responses, it seems that there is no way to verify, real time, if a permit form another state is really valid. I'm going to guess that has a lot to do with it.
In Missouri, tossing them is an event at the State Fair in Sedalia . . .
Here is something you may want to "Duly Note"
Out west we are taught that it is a lot better to be known as a "cow chip kicker" than just a "chip".
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