AJ
US Veteran
As a aside, I just looked at a auction where a National Postal Meter is being auctioned. The price is at $2996.00 with a couple of days to go before the bidding is over.
Musings on the M1 carbine
- Thread starter Faulkner
- Start date
Terry G
Member
I don't recall any of our guy's shooting a Water Buffalo on purpose, but they would get shot straying into a night ambush. It was sad because I had one of the interpreters tell me it cost close to 3 years wages for a Farmer to replace one. A Navy guy I worked with told me he had shot one with the twin .50's off his PBR and had to pay $300.00 from his pay to the Farmer who had gotten the boat number. They weren't stupid.
Terry G
Member
A Marine Korean War Veteran said his M-2 Carbine worked fine and it put the Chinese down for the count. He said the only draw back was the barrel was quick to overheat so he used it semi most if the time.
Glenn R. McMannly
Member
Where are all of these sources?
Considering some BM59s lack a built in charger bridge, and that separate spoons were issued to reload magazines (before combat that is), and the fact that there a tons of surplus Italian magazine pouches for the BMs available, and there are NO photos of BM59 equipped Italian military with Garand/M1903 cartridge belts that I have been able to find, and nothing written on the subject, sort of proves otherwise.
It would be STUPID to reload a select-fire, MAGAZINE FED battle rifle with 5-round stripper clips in combat… especially in the freezing cold Italian Alps. It would completely defeat the purpose of adopting the rifle and you’d have better sustained fire with a Garand. Logically, it doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever.
Again, are there any sources that you can cite that mate up with reality? You might be confusing photos of Italian troops with M1s, or might have read about training courses of fire. I’m not judging you.
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Actually that's a myth as the culprit of that was the M-3 .45 SMG. The cold weather degraded a already slow round so it would not penetrate.
Dan W. Cady
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Thats Folklore, the 30 Carbine case necked down was the 5.7 Johnson Spitfire Wildcat.
I have both and love shooting them but they’re not remotely the same the way I load for them. I shoot 300 subsonic exclusively, no real interest in supers. You’re right 30 carbine has that covered. But for slow, 200-220 gr loads that are whisper quiet out of my bolt gun, 300 blackout cannot be beat. Equally useful as an AR pistol/SBR.
I did load some 300 supers once, and I think it called for H110, same powder commonly used for 30 carbine.
30 carbine was my deer rifle as a boy in the 80’s. Until I graduated to the M1A or even the 03A3. Still have and shoot them all. Well not the 30-06 so much.
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This is an interview with Ron Rosser, CMH recipient in the Korean War.
At 16:20 in the interview, he talks about fighting close enough that he was sticking his CARBINE in their ears. He made 3 trips up to the top of the hill with his carbine & hand grenades. The Carbine did not fail Sgt. Rosser.
This is an extremely interesting interview, well worth watching in it's entirety.
As a young lad, my constant companion in the woods & swamps was an Underwood carbine. It was an incredible shooter. Sadly, I let it get away from me, but I have replaced it with another. Unfortunately, I have not fired this one any where near the amount of times I did that Underwood.
Ned
At 16:20 in the interview, he talks about fighting close enough that he was sticking his CARBINE in their ears. He made 3 trips up to the top of the hill with his carbine & hand grenades. The Carbine did not fail Sgt. Rosser.
This is an extremely interesting interview, well worth watching in it's entirety.
As a young lad, my constant companion in the woods & swamps was an Underwood carbine. It was an incredible shooter. Sadly, I let it get away from me, but I have replaced it with another. Unfortunately, I have not fired this one any where near the amount of times I did that Underwood.
Ned
I am around 82 (iffy birth certificate and all relatives are dead). I acquired my first Carbine in 1964 (DCM) and still have it and others. I am with the 'love it' group. I have shot every thing available in NE with never a glitch. Even had an M2 at one point in service but, I find (found) semi to actually be more practical with less ammo consumption. If you want a REALLY effective load try some Winchester 110 gr HPs. Only cartridge I ever had that would stop a porcupine with one shot. As much as I love my assorted '06s the Carbine is the perfect woods gun for around here.
My 10 year grandson loves to shoot my 1944 Inland. We shoot plastic jugs of water and pop cans. He uses a shoulder pad. I just loaded up another 300+ rounds for him. The mobster Bugsey Siegal was kiillled by a Carbine when sitting on his sofa in Vegas when he got greedy. SF VET
About 15 years ago bought this transitional ‘44 Inland carbine at a gun show. $600. I think it was a DCM rifle from long ago and not shot since. I reload 110 ball for it and my 10 year old grandson loves to shoot it. SF VET[url=https://postimg.cc/BXqxgd35]
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[/URL]As a MACV advisor in IV corps i had a vast assortment of firearms as no one cared about us advisors. Had this paratroop M2 which somewhere in its past had a folding stock added. With the flipping butt plate had to hold it up either my arm to keep the rifle from slipping off. Just plinking down by the river. SF VET
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AJ
US Veteran
The wire stock looks bent down a bit to me.As a MACV advisor in IV corps i had a vast assortment of firearms as no one cared about us advisors. Had this paratroop M2 which somewhere in its past had a folding stock added. With the flipping butt plate had to hold it up either my arm to keep the rifle from slipping off. Just plinking down by the river. SF VET
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Spend 40 years interested in a firearm as well as the evolution of infantry tactical doctrine and you will come across a lot of interviews with troops, and designers. My apologies for not documenting my personal interest research like it was an academic paper.
But lets talk about the bolded portion of your comment:
"It would be STUPID to reload a select-fire, MAGAZINE FED battle rifle with 5-round stripper clips in combat… especially in the freezing cold Italian Alps. It would completely defeat the purpose of adopting the rifle and you’d have better sustained fire with a Garand. Logically, it doesn’t stand up to any scrutiny whatsoever."
My intent was to provide both a context and a rationale for the very sturdy and heavy construction of the BM59's magazine, even more durable than the M14.
While I agree the concept of issuing just 1 or 2 magazines is out of step with *modern* tactical doctrine, it does make sense from the perspective, doctrine and context of the time:
1. While the magazine was removeable it was primarily intended to be used by topping off with stripper clips when the rifle was used as an battle rifle. (The only BM59s that do not have a clip guide for recharging the magazine in the rifle are the BM59 S.L, a simplified variant of the already simplified BM59E, and some BM59s manufactured for the commercial market.)
That's not significantly different than the tactical doctrine behind the British SMLE where a spare magazine, if issued at all, could be used to reload a rifle quickly in an emergency/final protective fire situation. But the SMLE was again primarily intended to be loaded and topped off with either single rounds or a stripper clip as the situation required. The ability to hold 10 rounds in the SMLE magazine meant it could be quickly replenished with 5 more rounds using a stripper clip, without the magazine being completely empty.
2. Remember also that pre WWII the M1 Garand was very controversial as many US senior officers did not see a need for a semi auto rifle at all, and logistics officers in particular saw it as encouraging poor marksmanship and waste of ammunition.
3. During WWII, US tactical doctrine was to pin the opposition in place with a light machine gun and or automatic riflemen firing the BAR, while the rest of the squad or platoon broke it down with aimed semi-auto rifle fire from the M1 Garand.
That tactical doctrine was very successful and strongly influenced the post war leadership in many countries, including the US and Italy. Many senior officers involved in the procurement process and evolution of tactical doctrine were not fully convinced on the concept of the select fire assault rifle. That is evident in the adoption of a full power battle rifle round - the 7.62x51 NATO - rather than an intermediate round like the excellent .280 British or the more .30-06 based tooling friendly .280/30. Militaries have historically prepared for the last war they fought.
4. Consequently, in the US we saw the adoption of the M14, complete with:
- a stripper clip guide on the top of the receiver for the obvious purpose of topping off the magazine in the rifle with one or more 5 round stripper clips;
- the M2 Bandoleer with 6 pockets each designed to carry a pair of 1903 style 5 round stripper clips;
- a prescribed doctrine for the infantryman to use the ammunition in the bandoleers to reload the rifle, before using the loaded spare magazines carried in the 2 or 3 magazine M1956 magazine pouches, or the later single magazine M1961 magazine pouches;
- the M14 produced as a semi auto rifle with the capability of adding a select fire capability in *limited* cases; and
- the development of the M14E1 issued in 1963 and standardized as the M14A1 in 1966 as a squad automatic weapon.
Clearly the concept of using a single magazine in a semi auto battle rifle and refilling it with stripper clips was well accepted at the time the M14 was developed, and into the early 1960s. That doctrine is fully compatible with carrying ammunition in bandoleers and loading with stripper clips with just 1 or 2 spare magazines held in reserve.
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From a more specific cash strapped Italian perspective also consider the difficulty of topping off the en bloc clip in an M1 Garand. You have to eject the en bloc clip, insert a new one and then either collect or abandon the loose rounds from the initial clip.
A semi auto variant of the M1 Garand using a 20 round detachable box magazine that could be quickly replaced with a full magazine in a final protective fire situation, or easily topped off with 5 round stripper clips as needed or desired represented a major advance over the original M1 Garand. And, as noted in the above US M14 discussion, was fully in accordance with accepted infantry doctrine at the time. As for your alps comment, the Italians fought in the alps all through WWI I am sure they were familiar with the challenges of loading rifles with stripper clips in cold weather. They obviously didn't see it as a deal breaker, or they would have long before adopted and SMLE style magazine on a service rifle, its not like the technology for detachable box magazine on a rifle was a recent development.
On the BM59, as with the M14, the ability to add a full auto capability for a fully automatic rifleman using the BM59 in a squad was a bonus. And the Italians did much better job of it in terms of not having to develop a separate squad automatic rifle variant as their trim compensator muzzle device was very effective.
Clearly, in that role, reloading with stripper clips would be impractical.
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Where people get off track in their judgement is in a lack of understanding of the tactical doctrine of the time and inserting later doctrine and biases.
In this case, it's aggravated by how the M14, the follow on M16, and the Australian L1A1 SLR were ultimately used in Vietnam, where troops encountered NVA and increasingly NVA armed with assault rifles (select fire, firing a reduced recoil intermediate cartridge) in the form of the AK47 and its Chinese variants. In that environment, topping off magazines through a stripper clip was less relevant and the greater use of select fire made it more practical to carry more fully loaded magazines, despite the weight increase. The advance of vertical lift capability in terms of both delivering troops to combat and replenishing them also made higher rates of fire sustainable without massively increasing the combat load of ammunition.
On the other hand, the whole concept of full auto capability was and is still debated given how fast poorly trained and or undisciplined troops would blow through their entire combat load with very little effect in a fire fight. The end result was the three shot burst feature on the M16A2 and minor variations on the M4.
Show me where you think that logic fails - in the context of the tactical doctrine of the era, and not through a post Vietnam era lens.
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