Help Diagnosing X Frame mechanical issue

I have an X Frame, that will occasionally go through a spat where it will progressively get harder to cycle/pull the hammer over 6 rounds. I'll do my best to explain it.

Open the cylinder, close the cylinder. First rotation of a charge hole is normal, next charge hole, functions normal, third charge hole is the first time you notice its slightly harder to pull. 4th time its hard to pull. 5th shot its flat out hard, and the 6th shot is essentially locked up. Open the cylinder, close the cylinder and its starts the cycle over. Normal, normal, noticeable, hard, tough, impossible. Open and close the cylinder, and the process starts over.

It doesn't matter whether the gun is loaded or empty, or whether the action is progressed via the trigger or thumbing the hammer. It doesn't matter which charge hole is oriented up when the action is closed. The first time it did it, (repeated the process maybe 4 or 5 times consistently) I popped the side plate off to just look for something out of place internally. Put it back together and everything worked fine. Maybe 20 rounds later it started up again. Identical symptoms. This time it just eventually resolved itself after a few open/closes of the cylinder.

Has any one experienced this before? Is there any thing in particular to inspect or adjust? I have a theory, but don't want to influence the thinking of the wiser minds here. I'm trying to resolve it rather than send it back to Smith as it's currently running fine and I'm sure they'll thumb the hammer 20 times, and send it back with "ops check normal".

My first thought was bullets jumping the crimp, as I have experienced similar symptoms with 450 gr .460 reloads.
The bullet noses where flush with the cylinder face so there was not much space left before the bullets contacted the forcing cone, inducing similar symptoms.
As you say it does the same with an empty cylinder, this is obviously not the problem though...

Wow, that's bizzarre! I've never heard of that before, where it follows the same progressive pattern each time! Did it do this from the beginning when new, or is this a problem that recently started?

My thoughts are that perhaps the cylinder stop timing is slightly off and the width of the stop is tight in the cylinder notches. So, when you first close the cylinder, maybe the cylinder stop doesn't slide all the way up in the cylinder notches because it's a tight fit, so the front ledge on the trigger is able to pull it free before the hand starts rotating the cylinder. Then somehow, the cylinder stop progressively works its way deeper in the cylinder notches with each index because of some difference in the way the notches are presented to the stop when the hand moves it. Then if the cylinder stop timing is slightly off, the hand may be starting to move the cylinder before the trigger is able to retract the cylinder stop down out of the notches, causing the hand to bind the cylinder up against the stop.

Whatever the cause, it sounds like a slight timing issue where the hand is starting to rotate the cylinder before the cylinder stop is fully retracted and the cylinder is then binding against the side of the stop. Then perhaps the stop timing only marginally late so that for whatever reason, it doesn't show a problem until the cylinder indexes a couple times.

This is just my wild-azz guess. What is your theory?

Could be a bend in the ejector rod or the yoke barrel or both. It is definitely something between the rear lock up and the front of the yoke. As the cylinder turns, it binds.

I thought 460/500s were 5 rounds and the 350 is 7 rounds.

Call S&W and get a label and return gun

As CMJ8591 suggests you have a ejector rod and/or yolk issue- I suspect it is the yolk is tweaked.
Hope you are not flipping the cylinder closed, with the mass of X frame cylinders the yolk it could be bent.

In future I would suggest providing the caliber.

Of coarse those familiar with the X-frame family would know 460 and 500 are 5 shoot as opposed to 7 shoot 350.

But if it were an ejector rod or yoke issue, then he wouldn't have the same progressive pattern happening when he closes the cylinder on any chamber, would he not? He stated that it doesn't matter which chamber is at 12:00 when he closes the cylinder, the same pattern starts happening. Ejector rod runout would always track with a particular chamber, since the ejector rod and ejector are locked in sync with the cylinder. And if there was some problem with the yoke spindle, wouldn't the issue occur randomly rather than with a set predictable progression as described?

cmj8591 said:

Could be a bend in the ejector rod or the yoke barrel or both. It is definitely something between the rear lock up and the front of the yoke. As the cylinder turns, it binds.

Click to expand...

He stated that it doesn't matter which chamber is lined up with the firing pin when he closes the cylinder; it initially works fine for 2 chamber indexes, then becomes progressively worse. If it was related to a bend in the ejector rod or yoke barrel, then the problem would track along with specific cylinder chambers that align with the direction of bend, and it does not per the OP. So, I don't see how it could be related to ejector rod or yoke.

Thaddeus Beauregard said:

He stated that it doesn't matter which chamber is lined up with the firing pin when he closes the cylinder; it initially works fine for 2 chamber indexes, then becomes progressively worse. If it was related to a bend in the ejector rod or yoke barrel, then the problem would track along with specific cylinder chambers that align with the direction of bend, and it does not per the OP. So, I don't see how it could be related to ejector rod or yoke.

Click to expand...

Because sometimes there is a variance in the cylinder where it bares on the end of the yoke barrel so that would create a situation where it will sometimes align with the bend and sometimes not. The center pin in the X frames is different also. It doesn't go all the way through the yoke so depending how it happens to orient to the frame and cylinder will add to the random nature of the interference. And if that's not enough, the front locking ball may not be engaging as it should due to a bent yoke and that could be adding to the problem. The problem is somewhere between the center pin and the ejector rod.

Imissedagain said:

I thought 460/500s were 5 rounds and the 350 is 7 rounds.

Click to expand...

Its a 350, don't usually try to force it to the 7th shot.

ruggyh said:

Call S&W and get a label and return gun

As CMJ8591 suggests you have a ejector rod and/or yolk issue- I suspect it is the yolk is tweaked.
Hope you are not flipping the cylinder closed, with the mass of X frame cylinders the yolk it could be bent.

In future I would suggest providing the caliber.

Of coarse those familiar with the X-frame family would know 460 and 500 are 5 shoot as opposed to 7 shoot 350.

Click to expand...

As a strict rule I never slam anything open/closed. It is a 350.

So my wild theory, (backed with no educated knowledge of the internal workings beyond what I can see) is that it has something to do with the internal lock. In the fantasy land that is my brain, I can kind of picture that flag on the side of the hammer being incrementally positioned with each shot, maybe the motion of the hammer is dragging it up into position further? I don't know if that's feasible at all but that's the only thing I could think up that would be independent of cylinder orientation. I can't explain how opening and closing the cylinder would magically reset the issue though.

I do not believe it has anything to do with the Internal Lock. It has to do with the cylinder and it's rotational capability. Several possibilities have been mentioned above, but it is time for this gun to be returned to Smith & Wesson along with lots of explanation of the problem and pictures if possible.

If you have fired one cylinder full, then the next having problems I would suggest coarse grains of burnt powder getting under the extractor star, and causing a bind. Your method of extracting cases can contribute to the problem. Only extract with the barrel straight up.

I'll try to get it to happen again and pay close attention to the star for any obstruction. I'm trying to avoid the hassle of sending it back to smith just to have them return it with nothing done. I've called and spoke to them about it and they didn't have any suggestions. In the end though you're probably right, I'll have to send it back if I can't identify the problem.

cmj8591 said:

Because sometimes there is a variance in the cylinder where it bares on the end of the yoke barrel so that would create a situation where it will sometimes align with the bend and sometimes not. The center pin in the X frames is different also. It doesn't go all the way through the yoke so depending how it happens to orient to the frame and cylinder will add to the random nature of the interference. And if that's not enough, the front locking ball may not be engaging as it should due to a bent yoke and that could be adding to the problem. The problem is somewhere between the center pin and the ejector rod.

Click to expand...

Maybe. If the yoke barrel is bent, that could certainly cause the cylinder notches to not be square with the cylinder stop and could bind the stop up in the notches, which then binds the trigger as the hand is trying to rotate the cylinder against a stuck stop. It seems to me if that were the case however, the problem the OP observes would not likely show the exact same "easy > easy > slight noticeable resistance > difficult pull > very difficult pull > trigger completely locked up" pattern progression no matter which chamber is initially lined up in firing position, and then reset once cylinder is opened and closed again. If it was a cylinder to yoke barrel issue, wouldn't the "easy to difficult" trigger pull progression be completely random and not follow the exact same pattern every time as he described? Sometimes it would be seized up on the first pull, sometimes on the second, third, and so on...

Could this have something to do with a hand that is slightly too narrow, or a hand frame slot that is slightly too wide, causing the hand to progressively drift outward away from the cylinder ratchet in its slot during carry up, binding up the hand, and thus the trigger? A S&W hand is very width-dependent for proper timing. A too narrow hand, too wide a frame hand slot, or too "long" of a ratchet negatively effects timing and can cause the hand to bind the cylinder against the cylinder stop head. This could explain why it would reset itself when he opens then closes the cylinder. Opening relieves pressure from the ratchets against the hand and allows the hand to return to orientation against the inboard side of the hand slot. I think this could be related to an aggregate of hand width, hand length, hand slot width, and ratchet dimension tolerance stackups.

Regardless, this gun needs to be returned to S&W with a very detailed description of the problem.

59f100292 said:

So my wild theory, (backed with no educated knowledge of the internal workings beyond what I can see) is that it has something to do with the internal lock. In the fantasy land that is my brain, I can kind of picture that flag on the side of the hammer being incrementally positioned with each shot, maybe the motion of the hammer is dragging it up into position further? I don't know if that's feasible at all but that's the only thing I could think up that would be independent of cylinder orientation. I can't explain how opening and closing the cylinder would magically reset the issue though.

Click to expand...

That cannot be the cause. The lock is moved by a rotating cam against spring tension. The rotating cam pushes the lock plate upwards engaging a lug on its surface into a corresponding slot on the hammer. It is either completely locked or completely unlocked; there is no "in between" position where progressively increased pressure could be exerted on the hammer. Not only that, but if the lock were the cause, you would see the lock flag with the word "locked" visibly protruding beside the hammer whenever the trigger and hammer are locked up.

59F, was this problem observable from the very beginning when the gun was new, or did this issue develop over time?

The sooner you send it in the sooner you will get it back.

cmj8591 said:

Could be a bend in the ejector rod or the yoke barrel or both. It is definitely something between the rear lock up and the front of the yoke. As the cylinder turns, it binds.

Click to expand...

Check for debris behind the extractor.

59f100292 said:

I have an X Frame, that will occasionally go through a spat where it will progressively get harder to cycle/pull the hammer over 6 rounds. I'll do my best to explain it.

Open the cylinder, close the cylinder. First rotation of a charge hole is normal, next charge hole, functions normal, third charge hole is the first time you notice its slightly harder to pull. 4th time its hard to pull. 5th shot its flat out hard, and the 6th shot is essentially locked up. Open the cylinder, close the cylinder and its starts the cycle over. Normal, normal, noticeable, hard, tough, impossible. Open and close the cylinder, and the process starts over.

It doesn't matter whether the gun is loaded or empty, or whether the action is progressed via the trigger or thumbing the hammer. It doesn't matter which charge hole is oriented up when the action is closed. The first time it did it, (repeated the process maybe 4 or 5 times consistently) I popped the side plate off to just look for something out of place internally. Put it back together and everything worked fine. Maybe 20 rounds later it started up again. Identical symptoms. This time it just eventually resolved itself after a few open/closes of the cylinder.

Has any one experienced this before? Is there any thing in particular to inspect or adjust? I have a theory, but don't want to influence the thinking of the wiser minds here. I'm trying to resolve it rather than send it back to Smith as it's currently running fine and I'm sure they'll thumb the hammer 20 times, and send it back with "ops check normal".

Click to expand...

I just got my 500 mag back from Smith. I sent it in for warranty repair because it was very hard to open and close the cylinder. There was also abnormal wear on the extractor teeth where it engages to advance the cylinder. They replaced the barrel, shroud, extractor, extractor rod and the frame which has the serial number on it so it had to be returned through and FFL and a 4473 form filled out. I have a weapons carry license so they didn't have to do a background check. The process was very simple and took about five weeks total. X frame revolvers are nothing to mess around with. It's not like it's a 22lr. Call Smith and they will take care of it. The timing on mine seemed to be perfect but I could see where the abnormal wear on the extractor teeth could cause it to bind and not lock up. The cylinder has to be locked up before it can be cocked and then fired. Btw, it has a double lockup system to handle the extraordinary pressure on the cylinder.