Small RIFLE Primers for 9mm

I was searching the net to see if it would be safe to use small pistol magnum primers to reload my 9mm and I found someone who said, "I use nothing but small rifle primers for 9mm reloading." (emphasis added by me)

I thought it was a mistake but the guy posted again in the same thread saying he had been doing this for a while.

If it were that simple/safe/reliable wouldn't everyone be doing this? It sounds too good to be true. The forum post is a couple years old so I wasn't going to reply to it...

I am very new to reloading, and yes I have the full LEE reloading manual but I am looking at ways to be resourceful as small pistol primers are impossible to get. Nobody challenged the guy on the forum, so thought I'd ask the question here.

Here is the actual post... the guy with the nick Alleykat swears by small rifle primers. I suspect it is not the right thing to do, but in desperate times (e.g. major crisis/emergency) you might be willing to resort to desperate measures.
Can you use small pistol magnum for 9mm? - The Firing Line Forums


Thank you !

My not knowing the dynamics involved, I would not use rifle or magnum primers with such a fast burning powder. Also, I would not trust the opinion of a stranger until I could establish his expertise in the field.

As a rule I use loads specified in reloading manuals. If the load calls for CCI Small Pistol and R-P brass I do not sweat it using Winchester small pistol primers and brass. Changing primer types SP to SPM to SR or SRM would be something altogether different. All types of primers are difficult to come by these days. Instead of trying to develop your own loads with new components I'd spend some time trying to trade the components you have for what you need.

Not entirely unsafe, but most reloaders will just use the components designed for the particular cartridge reloaded. I always attempt to keep my reloading as per my reloading manuals; small pistol primers for my .38, 9mm 357, small rifle for my .223, etc.. When supplies were hard to find a few years ago. I substituted small rifle primers for small pistol primers in my .357, but did so cautiously; reduced powder charges back to starting load and worked up to what I wanted. Some have experimentation/experience with "other than recommended" components and found them to be workable and safe, in their application. The reloading police aren't going to break down your door if you use rifle in place of pistol primers, but thoughtful, careful, attentive methods/progress is highly recommended.

BTW; large rifle primers can't be safely substituted for large pistol primers as the rifle primers are taller...

My understanding is that rifle primers tend to need a harder strike to ignite them, which could be an issue.

Saw where someone used pistol primers in ammo for an AR... wasn't a really great idea for a rifle with a free floating pin.

I worked in a reloading specialty shop for 9 years. You would not believe some of the stuff I have heard. There are folks who have/are doing things for years that professional ballisticians warn are not to be done and get away with it. They then come to the conclusion that what they are doing is ok and tell the whole world it is. To that I say Pfui! Listen to the pros they put their name on what they say not some internet alias. They spend years and lots of dollars testing what they publish they know of what they speak.

Would you accept legal advice from a cab driver or your preacher?

zoom6zoom said:

My understanding is that rifle primers tend to need a harder strike to ignite them, which could be an issue.

Saw where someone used pistol primers in ammo for an AR... wasn't a really great idea for a rifle with a free floating pin.

Click to expand...

During the Great Primer Famine of 1994, one of my club members loaded large pistol primers in his M1 Garand. I had no idea just how fast one of those can spit our eight rounds with one trigger pull.

As mentioned, we all went thru this same scenario 4 years ago. There were enough positive statements about using small rifle primers in 9mm (including some of the competitive shooters who said they always did it, not just because there was a shortage) that I gave it a try. Everything worked just fine, I think I ended up using my standard load. Like anything else, use your head and proceed accordingly. Most importantly, I never read any post from anyone that tried it and said there was a problem or they wish they hadn't done it. Your decision.

I started reloading while stationed at Wheelus field in Lybia and as you may surmise reloading componets were in short supply. The main problem was that the rifle primers were harder to contain the higher pressures and that some may be hard to set off with light strikes with target pistols. That being said if I had to use magnum primers I would start with a reduced load.

SWCA 892

Small pistol, Small Rifle & Large Pistol primers are all the same height.
Large Rifle is slightly taller than those other three.

The matching diameters are obvious I'd think at this point.

Rifle primers are harder material than pistol.

Beyond that you are on your own mixing components in a load.

The powder companys spend millions in lab tests using all sorts of combinations of load components and then publish the safe to use ones. All so we don't have to guess.

You can very likely use SR in SP in many instances,,maybe some not.
I don't know what the 'maybe some not' are and as long as I'm not in an End of Days survival reloading mode, I still use SP in SP.

JMHO,,just don't do stuff like top off the load with some R/R flare powder as one memorable character I worked with did many years back.
People do really crazy experiments when reloading.
Model 37 3" does not stand up well to that particular loading.

Most wouldn't admit it if the switch damaged their gun anyway.
You'd never hear about it or someone else would get the blame for bad reloads.
It's like the disassembled, maybe damaged & usually parts missing gun handed over in a box. "Can you put this back together, my stupid Brother In Law took it apart".

zoom6zoom said:

My understanding is that rifle primers tend to need a harder strike to ignite them, which could be an issue.

Saw where someone used pistol primers in ammo for an AR... wasn't a really great idea for a rifle with a free floating pin.

Click to expand...

From what I have read so far I believe this is true. But there isn't any proof...

Someone spoke with a tech from CCI:


The information given by the CCI tech is completely consistent with data published by several competition shooters, including Jeff Maass, USPSA L-1192 in October 2003. He discusses using rifle primers instead of pistol primers on purpose because they have the ability to withstand higher pressures and competition shooters are usually pushing limits on their guns. Full doc: http://www.precisionbullets.com/PDF/maashl40sw.pdf

Some non-factual but common information easily found searching the web:

• 
  NEVER use Small Pistol Primers in a Rifle!!! The thinner primer caps cannot withstand the higher pressure of a rifle, and there is risk of pre-mature primer detonation.

• 
  The primary risk of using rifle primers in a pistol is the primer not igniting because the primer cup is thicker and it takes more force to ignite, this is why you'd never use the thin pistol primers in rifle, not even in an emergency situation.

• 
  There is no marked increase in pressures or bullet velocity when using rifle primers in a pistol. Some people have indicated that they measured very small increases in the range of 1 to 4 FPS.

• 
  It is surprisingly easy to find re-loaders who use rifle primers in a pistol. Most swear by it and claim that there is no (noticeable) difference.

• 
  From what I can tell it is not too dangerous to use rifle primers in a pistol assuming you have comprehensive reloading knowledge, reference material, and much real-world experience.

This is something that I'd love to learn someday, or if someone else finds data on the subject please share.

Remember: Using a weaker pistol primer in a rifle can be deadly and should never be attempted.

jag22 said:

As mentioned, we all went thru this same scenario 4 years ago. There were enough positive statements about using small rifle primers in 9mm (including some of the competitive shooters who said they always did it, not just because there was a shortage) that I gave it a try. Everything worked just fine, I think I ended up using my standard load. Like anything else, use your head and proceed accordingly. Most importantly, I never read any post from anyone that tried it and said there was a problem or they wish they hadn't done it. Your decision.

Click to expand...

This is my belief as well, but I will wait until I have more real-world experience reloading. I'm still in the "learning" phase.

If you have the pistol primers, use them in the pistol for now. I have been using small rifle primers and small pistol magnum primers in 9/38/357/40 and found no difference in velocity when chronographing the loads. However, I tend to never exceed about 75% of SAAMI max according to Quick Load which is also cross referenced to be safely below the published max loads in reloading manuals and powder websites (some of which vary widely).

I've never had a problem with a small rifle primer not going off in a handgun, but all my guns are less than 35 years old and have never been modified in the hammer/striker.

My very first reloads were with Large Pistol Magnum primers in 45ACP. The clerk at Cabela's handed me the LPM box instead of the LP's I asked for and I didn't know any better until I got home. After starting out very low, I worked up the charge and wound up using the same charge I now use with LP's. No difference.

Many questions of this type can be answered by the hand loader
himself by the use of any hand loaders best friend, the chronograph.
Mine tells me that there is a small velocity increase in loads using
small charges of fast burning powder when going from a Winchester
SP primer to a SPM primer. It also tells me that a Winchester SPM
primer and a SR primer yield virtually identical velocities. I just bought
5,000 Winchester SR primers because they were available and the
seller had no SP primers of any make. I will no doubt use all 5,000
in 9mm, 38 spl and 357 mag handloads.

I've been using SR primers for 9mm for the last couple of years. Have used at least 9,000 in the 9mm brass and I can't ever remember a problem or FTF. About 1/2 of them was shot in a ruger convertable, thats a revolver 9mm/357 and for those ones I used a 125gr LRN 358 sized bullet along with the SR primer in the 9mm brass. Charlie

After reading all these posts it seems pretty obvious that the theme here and in many if not most of these beginner reloading posts is can I make this work with that. In other words this is all I can find or buy and since I don't have a manual or the manual I have doesn't list my combination — CAN I DO IT ?

This is a really dangerous road to go down. First of all the beginner is starting right off by experimenting instead of following the rules of published and tested data. Combine this with certain responders who don't hesitate to tell somebody you can load this powder with that bullet and primer — all of this so-called advice without any information on the gun being shot or the level of experience of the responder just goes against the grain of common sense.

Back off and wait for supplies and manuals to get back in circulation. If you have not been reloading for years like many of us and have a good supply and are just trying to get into this field I have to ask why now and why immediately ? Well I guess we all know the answer to this. It is this insane rush to own a. gun and shoot home made and cheaper ammo. Most of this is driven by two or three calibers the 223 and 9mm being the top of the list. Those guns and the thinking is shoot faster and shoot more so a couple hundred primers and a couple cans of powder that would normally support the average leisure shooter is inadequate. We now need Dillon's biggest baddest fastest, buckets of brass and grosses of primers and bullets.

I go to the range and watch the new shooters, which by the way dominate the benches and lanes in some places, and in a session cycle 200 rounds easily — I am sure this is conservative in many cases. At the end of the day most are frustrated by not hitting the paper and chewing up the berm and when they do tickle the edge of a man size target tell themselves that is good enough. What do you mean by group a guy asked me last week ?

Back off and wait for supply system to catch up then start over and learn the right way. Of course this supposes that you are really interested in shooting for the long term and this is not just a passing fad or reaction to what some may think is the end of the shooting world. You can do more to support the shooting sports and gun owners by slowing down and doing it right that by following the current path. I really don't want to read in the paper about two shooters hurt on the line by a blown off top strap or an AD down the line. That is giving them a freebie

Regards

This really became popular back in the IPSC days when competitors were using 38 Super for Major power. The harder rifle primers helped contain the excessive pressures. Every once in awhile there would be one not properly contained, and the competitor would get a case of "Super Face", the results of a one coming apart and spewing hot particles back into the competitor.

H Richard said:

This really became popular back in the IPSC days when competitors were using 38 Super for Major power. The harder rifle primers helped contain the excessive pressures. Every once in awhile there would be one not properly contained, and the competitor would get a case of "Super Face", the results of a one coming apart and spewing hot particles back into the competitor.

Click to expand...

What you tell us is pretty much the way it was. Competitors in early IPSC days were looking for every advantage and found they could just meet power levels with the super. Those that could were pushing that cartridge as far as it could go and beyond normal ballistics. The big boys with sponsors and money could afford to shoot new brass most of the time but the avg player was finding out that those hot loads was eating up brass and parts. The whole power level was based on 45acp ballistics and the Super could just reach it. I stayed with the 45 mostly due to economics but shooting it in matches was a handicap

rbianco3 said:

This is my belief as well, but I will wait until I have more real-world experience reloading. I'm still in the "learning" phase.

Click to expand...

Good thinking...

2152hq said:

Small pistol, Small Rifle & Large Pistol primers are all the same height.
Large Rifle is slightly taller than those other three.

The matching diameters are obvious I'd think at this point.

Rifle primers are harder material than pistol.

Beyond that you are on your own mixing components in a load.

The powder companys spend millions in lab tests using all sorts of combinations of load components and then publish the safe to use ones. All so we don't have to guess.

You can very likely use SR in SP in many instances,,maybe some not.
I don't know what the 'maybe some not' are and as long as I'm not in an End of Days survival reloading mode, I still use SP in SP.

JMHO,,just don't do stuff like top off the load with some R/R flare powder as one memorable character I worked with did many years back.
People do really crazy experiments when reloading.
Model 37 3" does not stand up well to that particular loading.

Most wouldn't admit it if the switch damaged their gun anyway.
You'd never hear about it or someone else would get the blame for bad reloads.
It's like the disassembled, maybe damaged & usually parts missing gun handed over in a box. "Can you put this back together, my stupid Brother In Law took it apart".

Click to expand...

I am not disagreeing with you but just want to take your train of thought, as I understand it anyway, a bit further. So let me throw some mud in the water just so others can see that these things are never black and white. That even though there are standards such as SAAMI in the industry there is a lot of wiggle room and manufacturing variables that must be dealt with

Primer height: Are all primers pockets the same depth ? Are all primers seated to the same depth ?

The answer is no and it is therefore pretty easy to get high primers that can stop a wheel gun from working and cause other problems with ignition etc. Mass produced brass primer pockets are punched out and vary in depth. Reason for uniforming pockets on some brass.

Primer Cup Hardness : Are all primer cups made to the same hardness by class, i.e., SR, LR, SP, LP Magnum, benchrest etc. They are not. Federals have always been known to be softer and easier to ignite while CCI are just the opposite. Not just my opinion but a known quantity and proven by competition shooters and smiths who will set up a revolver for Fed primers only knowing they will fire on less ounces of hammer fall. Guys like Creighton Audette did studies on primer performance and showed it to competitive rifle shooters years ago. This man is worth reading

Powder Performance: Not all powders perform with the same burning rate from batch to batch. I personally
know that years ago some batches of IMR stick powder was touchy this way while I have never heard of this being an issue with most of the flake double base shotgun type powders it has been a problem with some other pistol powders. If you are pushing the envelope on performance where another grain puts you in the red zone then you cannot safely load a new can of powder to the same load specs. You may be fine but if that batch is just a bit faster or slower it will change things up on you real fast. The old 10% rule applies here for sure. Always pour off your last third of the can into the new can and mix them up. This will even out any burn rate deviation.

Just something to consider

regards