Larry from Bend
Member
This thread is just too good to be relegated to the dust bin.
Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load
- Thread starter Hoptob
- Start date
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
This is true!
Qmark
Member
I found the data interesting and appreciate the report. One thing I didn't see mentioned is if any of the loads produce a low flash. I'm not familiar with BB's FBI load but a friend of mine carries BB in his Model 10 snubby. He told me he selected BB ammo based on its low flash claim. I'm not sure of the specific type of BB ammo he uses and I'm not sure if is +P or FBI load.
Years ago my shooting bud discharged his Model 10 snubby on a coyote that wandered into his camp ground late at night. I don't recall the type of ammo he used but he claimed the muzzle flash nearly blinded him and his wife both for several seconds.
Years ago my shooting bud discharged his Model 10 snubby on a coyote that wandered into his camp ground late at night. I don't recall the type of ammo he used but he claimed the muzzle flash nearly blinded him and his wife both for several seconds.
hotrod150
Member
Since this thread has been resurrected, I'm gonna reply to this 3-1/2 year old post.
I doubt a soft SWC-HP will penetrate as well as a hardcast SWC, at any velocity which expands it. The hard bullet being unexpanded is smaller & has greater sectional density and will therefore penetrate deeper at a given velocity.. But I would pick the expanding bullet IF the penetration is sufficient for the intended target. Self-defense against unarmored human beans (even wearing a leather jacket or similar) is different than shooting game animals which might have a gristle plate or other hardened features protecting their innards..
And I don't see the point in a cast hollowpoint bullet-- unless cast quite soft (which most people don't do), it won't expand so it might as well be a plain SWC . In which case a full wadctter will do more damage IMHO.
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Speaking of flash suppressed powder, has anyone tried BE-86?
nitesite
Member
If anyone is interested, you can see the night time muzzle flash from the BB #20A out of a 2" snubbie, as well as some other photos I took of some ammo that Hoptob (Mike) sent me for testing with a camera.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...-night-muzzle-flash-pics-courtesy-hoptob.html
I can promise all of you that none of these shots in the dark, and many others I have done while photographing them, caused any temporary night blindness whatsoever.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-re...-night-muzzle-flash-pics-courtesy-hoptob.html
I can promise all of you that none of these shots in the dark, and many others I have done while photographing them, caused any temporary night blindness whatsoever.
ArchAngelCD
Moderator, SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
Well then, there is certainly plenty of good information in this thread! Don't forget the range report.
scooter123
Member
While I appreciate the effort you put into this I have to question some of your loads. In particular that load of VV N340.
According to my 2012 VV manual the maximum charge for a 357 Magnum with this powder combined with an Intercast 160 grain bullet is 7.4 grains. So your particular load probably falls somewhere between +P and 357 Magnum in terms of pressure produced. I suspect that some of your other loads may fall into this same area. As a result you may want to consider adding a notation to your original post that these particular loads should be used only in revolvers rated for the 357 Magnum.
According to my 2012 VV manual the maximum charge for a 357 Magnum with this powder combined with an Intercast 160 grain bullet is 7.4 grains. So your particular load probably falls somewhere between +P and 357 Magnum in terms of pressure produced. I suspect that some of your other loads may fall into this same area. As a result you may want to consider adding a notation to your original post that these particular loads should be used only in revolvers rated for the 357 Magnum.
franzas
Member
I've been looking into handloading for a while now. I think this would be the perfect place to start. Might as well practice with what I carry, right? Thanks for all the great info.
A quick question for any of y'all that know about pressures and such:
I recently bought a M10-5 for use as my EDC. It is before the time of +P (76-77). I don't know a lot about how the .38 special changed over time. Just to play it safe I bought BB 20C for defense. My question is can I shoot +P out of my model 10, even though it isn't marked for it? If I can't, can I use less powder to bring the FBI [hand]load down to standard pressures?
Any info would be great. Thanks guys.
Franz
A quick question for any of y'all that know about pressures and such:
I recently bought a M10-5 for use as my EDC. It is before the time of +P (76-77). I don't know a lot about how the .38 special changed over time. Just to play it safe I bought BB 20C for defense. My question is can I shoot +P out of my model 10, even though it isn't marked for it? If I can't, can I use less powder to bring the FBI [hand]load down to standard pressures?
Any info would be great. Thanks guys.
Franz
Noticed that the BB load was said to have just 7.5 grs of powder in the load.
On 5/23/2013 I pulled the trigger three times on my M49
snub nose with a 158gr Lswc and did not fire the last two....
the chrony read out 912, 944 and 970 fps. Recoil was Heavy.
The load had a heavy crimp and standard cci 500 primers.
This load was the maximum load of 7.5grs BLUE Dot, per Alliant data.
With a very heavy crimp it may reach the 1,000 + fps........
but not in my J frame revolver!!
My final test with BD will try for 830 fps and be hopefully under the 18,000 cup pressures for the little J frame.
On 5/23/2013 I pulled the trigger three times on my M49
snub nose with a 158gr Lswc and did not fire the last two....
the chrony read out 912, 944 and 970 fps. Recoil was Heavy.
The load had a heavy crimp and standard cci 500 primers.
This load was the maximum load of 7.5grs BLUE Dot, per Alliant data.
With a very heavy crimp it may reach the 1,000 + fps........
but not in my J frame revolver!!
My final test with BD will try for 830 fps and be hopefully under the 18,000 cup pressures for the little J frame.
drummer007
Member
- Joined
- Sep 20, 2014
- Messages
- 158
- Reaction score
- 108
Hi. I am a new member to this forum, but have been reading it for years. I am 65 years old and have been reloading since 1975.
Back in 2009, member Hoptob started this thread with an excellent post about duplicating the Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP-GC +P load (BB #20A). He duplicated the load with 4 different powders and I have been using his 8.0gr HS-6 load to duplicate the BB load and have been very happy with it.
In that posting he said that BB was using 7.5 gr of a flake powder in its factory loading.
The four powders he used are as follows:
Powder...........Hodgdon Burn Rate Number..............Charge Needed to Duplicate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N340..............37.................................................6.7 gr
SR4756...........39.................................................7.0 gr
HS-6...............42.................................................8.0 gr
Longshot.........53..................................................7.0 gr
As we know, burn rate charts are approximate for reloading purposes and powders can change their relative position on the chart depending upon what cartridge case they are used in and what bullet weight they are used behind. This appears to be the case with Longshot; it changes it position from #53 to #39/#40 when used in a 38 Special case behind the Rim Rock 158 gr LSWCHP-GC bullet.
Fast forward to 2014 and I am out of HS-6. Can’t find any anywhere - OK, OK … a guy on GunBroker has 2 lbs of it for $100.00 a lb (plus additional HazMat + additional shipping !!). All that means is he is letting everyone know he has some, but it isn’t really for sale.
Anyway, a week ago, I go to our local gun show, with my list of the 4 powders. Can’t find any of them there; however, I do find a powder called CFE Pistol. It is #44 on Hodgdon’s burn rate chart. That is in the Burn Rate range I am looking for, so I decide to give it a try and buy 1 lb.
Here are my results:
Powder: CFE Pistol
Powder Charge: 7.5 gr (note1: same as BB) (note2: yes, I worked up to this charge)
Cases: Once fired Nickeled 38 Special with headstamp “Winchester 38 SPL+P”
Primers: WSP
Bullet: Rim Rock 158 LSWCHP-GC (same bullet BB and Hoptob use)
Crimp: VERY firm roll crimp
Ransom Rest
Number of shots per group and distance: 6/25 yards
Chrono: Shooting Chrony
Number of shots per velocity group and distance: 6/6 feet
Firearm #1: S&W 64-4 2” Barrel
Firearm #2: S&W 66-4 4” barrel
Temperature: 73 degrees F
Conditions: Sunny with very little wind
Firearm: 64-4
------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1041 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 26.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 5.7 inches
CFE-P Avg Vel: 1044 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 25.0 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 5.5 inches
Firearm: 66-4
-------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1128 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 11.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 3.0 inches
CFE-P Avg Vel: 1138 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 11.2 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 3.1 inches
It appears that for my revolvers and my cases, my primers and my lot of CFE Pistol powder, that 7.5 grains of CFE Pistol duplicates the 7.5 grain load that Buffalo Bore uses. While CFE Pistol is a ball powder and Hoptob reports that Buffalo Bore uses a flake powder, it takes equal charge weights of each powder to produce the same exterior ballistic results. I would think that also means that both powders are producing very nearly the same internal ballistic pressures as well.
It also appears that, with this load, my 64-4 should be used at targets less than 25 yards away.
Back in 2009, member Hoptob started this thread with an excellent post about duplicating the Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP-GC +P load (BB #20A). He duplicated the load with 4 different powders and I have been using his 8.0gr HS-6 load to duplicate the BB load and have been very happy with it.
In that posting he said that BB was using 7.5 gr of a flake powder in its factory loading.
The four powders he used are as follows:
Powder...........Hodgdon Burn Rate Number..............Charge Needed to Duplicate
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
N340..............37.................................................6.7 gr
SR4756...........39.................................................7.0 gr
HS-6...............42.................................................8.0 gr
Longshot.........53..................................................7.0 gr
As we know, burn rate charts are approximate for reloading purposes and powders can change their relative position on the chart depending upon what cartridge case they are used in and what bullet weight they are used behind. This appears to be the case with Longshot; it changes it position from #53 to #39/#40 when used in a 38 Special case behind the Rim Rock 158 gr LSWCHP-GC bullet.
Fast forward to 2014 and I am out of HS-6. Can’t find any anywhere - OK, OK … a guy on GunBroker has 2 lbs of it for $100.00 a lb (plus additional HazMat + additional shipping !!). All that means is he is letting everyone know he has some, but it isn’t really for sale.
Anyway, a week ago, I go to our local gun show, with my list of the 4 powders. Can’t find any of them there; however, I do find a powder called CFE Pistol. It is #44 on Hodgdon’s burn rate chart. That is in the Burn Rate range I am looking for, so I decide to give it a try and buy 1 lb.
Here are my results:
Powder: CFE Pistol
Powder Charge: 7.5 gr (note1: same as BB) (note2: yes, I worked up to this charge)
Cases: Once fired Nickeled 38 Special with headstamp “Winchester 38 SPL+P”
Primers: WSP
Bullet: Rim Rock 158 LSWCHP-GC (same bullet BB and Hoptob use)
Crimp: VERY firm roll crimp
Ransom Rest
Number of shots per group and distance: 6/25 yards
Chrono: Shooting Chrony
Number of shots per velocity group and distance: 6/6 feet
Firearm #1: S&W 64-4 2” Barrel
Firearm #2: S&W 66-4 4” barrel
Temperature: 73 degrees F
Conditions: Sunny with very little wind
Firearm: 64-4
------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1041 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 26.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 5.7 inches
CFE-P Avg Vel: 1044 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 25.0 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 5.5 inches
Firearm: 66-4
-------------------------------------------
BB Avg Vel: 1128 ft/sec
BB Std Dev: 11.9 ft/sec
BB Group Size: 3.0 inches
CFE-P Avg Vel: 1138 ft/sec
CFE-P Std Dev: 11.2 ft/sec
CFE-P Group Size: 3.1 inches
It appears that for my revolvers and my cases, my primers and my lot of CFE Pistol powder, that 7.5 grains of CFE Pistol duplicates the 7.5 grain load that Buffalo Bore uses. While CFE Pistol is a ball powder and Hoptob reports that Buffalo Bore uses a flake powder, it takes equal charge weights of each powder to produce the same exterior ballistic results. I would think that also means that both powders are producing very nearly the same internal ballistic pressures as well.
It also appears that, with this load, my 64-4 should be used at targets less than 25 yards away.
Vortec MAX
Member
- Joined
- Oct 13, 2014
- Messages
- 447
- Reaction score
- 254
I recently used the CFE Pistol in some 9mm Luger loads. I really like it. I think 5.0 grains over a Berry's 124 GR FP bullet is my new favorite plinking/practice load. I was using 4.0 grains of Bullseye, but I hate how that powder sticks to the hopper, scale pan, and funnel with static cling. The CFE Pistol is a dream to work with.
Mike
Mike
If it's got a model number.....
If it's got a model number and it's steel, you are good to go. The mod 10 handles +P easily. Darn good gun. The +P standard was introduced in 1972 but ANY S&W that has a model number and is steel is ok with +P.
As far as loading your own the BEST place to start is with a good manual and stick to the published loads. There is a LOT to know rather than just how much powder goes with what bullet. There are threads here where this is covered a lot. If you can't find it yourself, ask.
If it's got a model number and it's steel, you are good to go. The mod 10 handles +P easily. Darn good gun. The +P standard was introduced in 1972 but ANY S&W that has a model number and is steel is ok with +P.
As far as loading your own the BEST place to start is with a good manual and stick to the published loads. There is a LOT to know rather than just how much powder goes with what bullet. There are threads here where this is covered a lot. If you can't find it yourself, ask.
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I hate to just repeat what everybody else.....
I hate to just repeat what everybody else is saying but this is a first rate piece of work. THANKS!
I hate to just repeat what everybody else is saying but this is a first rate piece of work. THANKS!
Burn rates
Hi Drummer, Welcome to the forum! Interesting post.
Where are you seeing a chart that changes a powders relative burn rate in different cases? I've only seen the standard ones supplied by the powder companies.
.
Hi Drummer, Welcome to the forum! Interesting post.
Where are you seeing a chart that changes a powders relative burn rate in different cases? I've only seen the standard ones supplied by the powder companies.
.
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