Duplicating Buffalo Bore FBI Load

[drummer007]

Hi Bluedot37, thanks for the welcome.

You are correct. There are only the standard published burn rate charts, based on a standard sized "vessel". To test, compile and publish them for all the various cartridge case and bullet combinations would be impossible. However, it is a fact that powders can change their relative burn rate order based upon the cartridge case they are used in and the bullet behind which they are used. This is sometimes explained in the verbiage that accompanies standard charts.

As a matter of fact, Dick Lee (founder of Lee Precision) reported that INCREASING the charge weight of powder in the same powder/case/bullet combination to a point where the powder becomes compressed (by seating the bullet deeper), can actually LOWER the pressure (compared to lighter weight charges), in effect making the powder change its burn rate to a higher (slower) number. He demonstrated this using IMR3031 and 110 gr bullets in the 30-06. You can read about this on pages 100 and 101 in "Modern Reloading by Richard Lee". My copy was printed in 2001.

So, bottom line, burn rate charts are approximations and powders can change their relative positions based upon various factors.

 

[george_lehr]

drummer007 said:
"While CFE Pistol is a ball powder...."

For what it's worth, I recall having looked at my CFE Pistol powder closely and it looked like flakes. Very small flakes.
George

 

[ironhead7544]

Great info. I have used the loads from the early Speer manuals with no problems.

Has anyone here tested the BB type loads on the gel or on varmints? Any reports on self defense use?

 

[drummer007]

BB +P in Gel through 4 layers of denim

.38 spl gel test: Buffalo Bore 158 gr LSWCHP +P - YouTube

60 to 70 caliber expansion

 

[ironhead7544]

drummer007: Thanks for the photo. Impressive.

 

[nitesite]

drummer007 said:
"While CFE Pistol is a ball powder...."

For what it's worth, I recall having looked at my CFE Pistol powder closely and it looked like flakes. Very small flakes.
George

Some ball powders are semi-flattened just before final drying.

Titegroup is another example that appears to be flake but isn't.

Flake is made by an entirely different process.

 

[RussellD]

Has anyone tried replicating the load using BE86?

 

[Jaymo]

How high is the pressure with 7.5 gr of CFE Pistol?

What about using 2400 for duplicating the BB load?

 

[chief38]

Wow - another old thread resurrected!

I have been a huge BB fan for years and it ( BB #20A) is my EDC load in my 2" M60-7. I know many Reloaders that have tried to duplicate it and as of yet none have been successful doing so and staying within the SAAMI limits. I suppose that even if one comes within 75 or 100 fps of the BB loads and stays within Spec's it would be a viable practice load for the BB carry ammo.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I have a feeling (a strong feeling) a charge of 7.5gr CFE-Pistol is well over the 20,000 PSI SAAMI limits for a .38 Special +P loaded with a 158gr LSWC/HP bullet.

That's fine if you"re shooting that round in a .357 Magnum but it's not a .38 Special +P and it's not a FBI Replica load.

 

[David R]

How high is the pressure with 7.5 gr of CFE Pistol?

What about using 2400 for duplicating the BB load?

Ummm nope. 4.6 is a max load (158 lead), you are nearing a double charge.

5.4 is max for a 130.

David

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Ummm nope. 4.6 is a max load (158 lead), you are nearing a double charge.

5.4 is max for a 130.

David

That's exactly what I was talking about in Post #71. You see it too...

 

[Jaymo]

Ummm nope. 4.6 is a max load (158 lead), you are nearing a double charge.

5.4 is max for a 130.

David

5.4 grains of CFE Pistol is max for a 158 grain Hornady XTP in .38 Special +P, according to the Hodgdon website.
For lead, it would be higher.

5.0 grains with a MEI 158 grain cast SWC yields 1029 fps at 16,700 psi.

I'm still not sure 7.5 would be withing +P pressures.
I don't think it would be a problem in a K frame, but wouldn't want to light one off in my J frame.
It would probably be a great load for my 66.

 

[David R]

5.4 listed as max. 7.5 is more than a 30% increase.

Does anybody have quickload?
I can find it if needed.

David

 

[Black_Talon]

Does anybody have quickload?

I can find it if needed.

David

CFE Pistol's not in QL.

 

[Naphtali]

Regarding Buffalo Bore's enhanced "FBI Load" and its handloaded emulation, what results do these achieve in terms of penetration-expansion - especially versus malefactor in winter clothing - compared with Remington's original +P 38 Special 158-grain LSWC-HP ammunition? I mention Remington's because it appears to have measurably higher muzzle velocity and softer swaged bullet than Winchester or Federal's version.

Buffalo Bore's advertising blurb mentions violent expansion with about 14 inches of penetration in gelatin without mentioning any thick clothing fronting the gelatin. If bullets of these enhanced +P ammunitions are essentially the same hardness as Remingtons, would increasing close range velocity by several hundred feet per second result in devasting but shallow would channels in that circumstance?

To venture into a less frequent circumstance, placing a barrier between target human being and bullet - a sofa or typically cheap room-to-room door, for example, does the velocity increase retard lethal penetration that your target is less likely to cease his activity when compared with slower original FBI Load?

 

[chief38]

Let's not loose sight of what the OP's entire premise is here. He is suggesting different powders to use for TRAINING LOADS. If the loads he posted are SLIGHTLY backed off from I suspect pressures would rapidly drop and cheaper TRAINING loads would be very viable. Even if you only achieve around 950 fps (a 90 fps drop) I would still feel these are very viable TRAINING loads while using safer pressures. Carry the BB's for SD, practice with hand-loads and I doubt there would be a game changing perceptible difference for these purposes. YMMV!

 

[rasmith3442]

Deja Vu - All Over Again

Since the weather in Ohio is still too crappy to shoot outside much, it is brass processing and load work-up time.

I now use 135 Gold Dots in my 38 Spl. defense loads for a variety of reasons.

That said, I have used the FBI load a lot, including Cor-Bon and Buffalo Bore. C-B and BB both have very stout recoil when fired out of a light weight J-frame. More than I like, and more than my wife can handle. This is part of the reason for changing to 135 GD's.

I am doing more load development for .38 Special and am using BE-86 and CFE pistol, among others. Thought I would try those powders with 158 LSWCHP's just for old times sake.

While researching these loads, I reread this thread very closely. After rereading, and since I am going to be testing CFE Pistol, I did a linear regression analysis for CFE and 158 XTP's from Hodgdon's current manual. Here is what I found:

CFE Pistol, 158 XTP, 7.7" barrel:

4.6 gr., 816 FPS, 13,600 PSI Tabulated
5.0 gr., 914 FPS, 16,200 PSI Tabulated
5.4 gr., 986 FPS, 18,500 PSI Tabulated (+P)

5.6 gr., 1034 FPS, 20,000 PSI Extrapolated (+P)

7.5 gr., 1440 FPS, 31,400 PSI Extrapolated (.357 Mag. level)

Please note that these results are with a 7.7" test barrel and jacketed bullets. YMMV.

I am a P.E., mechanical engineer, and have been reloading since 1978.

As an aside, Dr. Fackler's research on the FBI load in the late 1980's seems to indicate that the optimum combination of penetration (12" - 18") and expansion (0.5" - 0.6") for both bare and clothed gelatin occurs with a muzzle velocity of about 875 - 900 FPS. I am shooting for (bad pun intended) about 875 FPS from my 2" J-frames and will take what I get in everything else.

S/F,

RAS, P.E. (aka Walter)

 

[Ballenxj]

Great thread here. I will have to come back to peruse.

 

[P-229]

hoptob,

Will all due respect, sir, why waste valuable shooting time trying to duplicate a factory load? I have at least 2 boxes of W-W factory FBI loads that have to be 30 years old. I have no reason to buy more. They'll last me the rest of my life.

BTW, I've yet to come across any .38 Special or .357 Mag load that I think surpasses the FBI load for bipedal self-defense. And I will add that the FBI load is not a whole lot of fun when fired out of a 2" Model 60. I couldn't imagine firing a .357 Mag load out of a "J" Frame.