Replaced stocks change C&R to Moderm?

jmace57

jmace57

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OKAY I am irritated. I won an item in an auction last weekend. It is a Model of 1917 with a 4 digit serial number. When I sent my Class 3 FFL to hem, they said it had been reclassified as a Modern gun because the stocks were not original. Really? Then about half the C&R guns I have bought should have been modern. They just cost me a transfer fee and a lot of hassle. Am I wrong here? I thought the changes had to be significant? Grrrr. So, am I not supposed to log this into my book? If I replace the stocks with replicas or original period stocks, does it BECOME C&R?
 
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If I replace the stocks with replicas or original period stocks, does it BECOME C&R?
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The short answer is "Yes", as long as the replicas are made of the same material as the originals. The long answer is that "minor" changes such as sights, extra holes for a scope mount, etc. may or may not affect the status. (Just depends on who is making the determination.) Sounds like, in your case, that the seller isn't taking any chances.

Here's one I'm going through.... I have a French M1886 M93 Lebel that by the serial number on the barrel is from 1888. (The receivers on these were not numbered and the French went by the barrel number).
Antique. Right?
Well. Maybe. It seems the French re-arsenaled a great number of these guns in the 1920's and stamped a rework date on the receiver.
Apparently some inspectors consider these to be C&R's because of this date.
I bought this rifle as an antique but should I enter it in my book as a C&R just to be safe?? The problem is that it is missing part of the front wood which I intend to replace, or fabricate, as needed. However, until I do this it supposedly doesn't qualify as a C&R because of it's "incompleteness".

Then, on the other hand, we have 4 fingers and a thumb....:confused:
 
deadin said:
depends on who is making the determination.) Sounds like, in your case, that the seller isn't taking any chances.
QUOTE]

I would agree with Deadin. Some sellers won't ship any guns to C&R holders; and one of our local auction houses has a policy that "only guns manufactured prior to 1898 and shooting ammunition that is not currently manufactured" will be sold as antiques.
If I purchased that gun, I would most certainly add it to my C&R list (with or without replaced stocks), and sell it as such if and when that occurred.
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Could it have legally been shipped as a C&R if the stocks were removed and not shipped with it? Or did you have a set of correct stocks to send to the shipper? Given what others stated, I do t blame the seller for being cautious.
 
According the the ATFs site, it says guns over 50 years old and in their original configuration. Different stocks could be argued under that, but it more or less sounds like the dealer is just being a pain and not wanting to do it.

Original configuration, I take to mean that caliber has not been changed or the action updated/reworked, or any other things that was done to make it more modern. I would not consider different stocks/grips to exclude it. Like you said, if everyone was that much of a stickler, majority of C&R would not make the cut due to different aftermarket grips.

You just had bad luck with the seller.
 
H Richard said:
That seller is a paranoid. The replacement of the grips, (or left off and shipped in the same box) should have no bearing on the C&R status, it is the date of the frame, barrel, cylinder of the revolver that determine the status.
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"That seller" is a well respected auction house.
 
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There are a few issues here.

#1. A model of 1917 is not an antique in any sense of the word. prior to 1898 is an antique.

#2. Unless there has been a recent change there is no requirement of original configuration for a C&R unless it is a military weapon, i.e. a K-98 mauser in original configuration is C&R eligible; a sporterized K-98 mauser is not. Some people cloud the waters by saying if the gun was sporterized 50 years ago it would qualify as a C&R but that is simply not true either.

#3. One big reason some FFL's don't deal with C&R's is the C&R license cannot be verified, and the reason for that is the big time collector's do not want the location of their collections to be public information. Another reason is guys are not sure of C&R status of firearms and that makes them shy away as well.
 
I believe many dealers feel they have the option of not honoring a C&R license even IF the gun qualifies. It's their business and they are not breaking any laws by not honoring a C&R eligible weapon.

Before I make a purchase, I always ask if it is "C&R eligible" and will they accept my "C&R license".

C&R eligible applies to both "military" and/or "50 years old or older'.... I would think this gun would qualify. Antique - pre 1898 doesn't even come into play. What would have happened if there were no grips at all...?
 
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I agree with you Linda. I understand it is their prerogative to handle business the way they want to. However, it is also MY prerogative to NOT do business with this auction house again. And that's what I will do.

By the way, they say they DO accept C&R License. I never said I thought it was an antique...just eligible for my C&R. I have received many, MANY items against my C&R license that had stag stocks, or MOP, or plastic, or no stocks at all.

Their terms say also that they will ship UPS Next Day, unless you call and make other arrangements. So, I called to say, please ship via USPS. They said "sorry, we ONLY ship UPS Next Day".
 
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I always ask if it is "C&R eligible" and will they accept my "C&R license".
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Same here... If they won't accept it I have to rethink whether I really want it or not. If I do I will go ahead and fill out a 4473 and make sure I get a copy of their license to enter in my book. If they won't give me a copy, the deal is off.
 
My apologies. I may have encouraged this thread to wander a bit. I mentioned "antiques" only to indicate that different dealers and/or auction houses perceive things differently - C&R's as well as antiques. That's fine, and it is their prerogative. I certainly never intended to suggest that you were dealing with an "antique" Model 1917! However, if the price and condition are right, a 4-digit 1917 would be delightful - even if a transfer fee was required!
 
Is that model of 1917 a US marked surplus gun? If it is then I believe the auction house is correct. If it is a civilian model they are wrong.

OK which auction house?

Also if you really want it have it shipped to a friendly FFL who most likely will treat it as a C&R to you. A little more time but no more money.
 
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I believe the "complete as originally configured" issue is from an opinion that was talking about eligibility of certain C&R's to be imported.
 
jmace57 said:
Their terms say also that they will ship UPS Next Day, unless you call and make other arrangements. So, I called to say, please ship via USPS. They said "sorry, we ONLY ship UPS Next Day".
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This is one of the greatest difficulties of the C&R license. The USPS only allows shipment of firearms from dealer to dealer. An 03 licensee is not a dealer, so the USPS is not available in a transaction involving a C&R.

That's the way it is, unfortunately.

Curl
 
Curl - I'm not doubting you for a second...but I have probably received 100 C&R guns from auction houses (Rock Island, Poulin, etc) via USPS to me with my C&R. I know I can't ship using USPS (handgun), but I have never had a problem being sent to me.

The gun itself is refinished (nicely). I paid a price I am comfortable with knowing it was refinished. I like these 1917s as shooters. After the expensive shipping and unexpected FFL fees, it turned from a good deal to an average deal.

OK - I'm sounding like a whiner, so I'm going to stop.
 
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From looking at various other gun-related forums, the prevailing feeling is that non-original parts that are meant to be removable (such as handgun grips or slings) and repairs and parts replacements that don't fundamentally alter the original appearance of the gun (such as a replacement handguard that's the right shape although the wood doesn't match) are fine, and do not affect the C&R status. But sporterized military rifles, guns with shortened barrels, addition of a scope sight, etc. definitely do remove the C&R status. So has BATFE ever issued a letter ruling addressing exactly which modifications affect C&R status and which do not?
 
I say one thing here:
Many of you give the BATF agents a lot more credit then they have earned regarding determining originality of a firearm. Many of the agents are absolutely clueless** in regards to the finer points of firearms and would have no knowledge base to dis-allow a firearm based upon grips.
Do what you think is right and reasonable and I seriously doubt if you'll have any real problems.
Jim
** We had two agents set up at the Phoenix show right next to me last year and in in my discussions with them I determined that the typical amateur attendee at the show had more firearms knowledge then these two. That's just ONE example of my interaction with them over the years.
 
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