Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers

mrcvs · #1 03-13-2022, 11:38 AM

How commonplace is a TARGET Model revolver in this model? They just don't seem to be that common.

And, are they more common in the .32-20 or .38 Special calibers?

dwh · #2 03-13-2022, 12:32 PM

1902’s in general seem to be scarce. The 38spls are always more common place than the 32-20’s regardless if it’s a target or M&P. My understanding is that less than 10% of the early k frames were target models.

JP@AK · #3 03-13-2022, 12:42 PM

Estimates run as low as 5% during some periods. In reality, we don't know with certainty, but lots of guys with great experience have produced the estimates.

Here is one that is pretty darn uncommon. A .32-20 Model of 1902 Target with a 5" barrel. Shipped on March 15, 1904, to Philip Bekeart in San Francisco, CA. The stocks, of course, are later than the gun. It shipped with black hard rubber stocks.

Lots of finish wear, but it still shoots like a dream.

wheelgun610 · #4 03-13-2022, 12:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dwh

1902’s in general seem to be scarce...

There's your answer. What's 10% of "scarce"?

Mark

mrcvs · #5 03-13-2022, 12:56 PM

My guess is that the .44 Hand Ejector First Model (Triple Lock) TARGET Model revolvers are less than 10% of production, and for the Model of 1902, especially the .32-20 caliber, the TARGET Model configuration is significantly less than even 10% of production.

I purchased this one yesterday, I may have sacrificed a bit in the way of condition simply because these seem less common than hen's teeth:

'smith' | SMITH & WESSON 32-20 H/E TARGET MODEL OF1902 | Milestone Auctions

rct269 · #6 03-13-2022, 01:12 PM

They must be getting few and far between. I bought a Model of 1902 Target and a Model of 1902 First Change Target at the Dallas SWCA annual meeting (2004??) for no more than maybe $800----probably closer to $600---for both. They sold within the last 2-3 years at GB auction for $2750 and $2265 respectively.

Go figure!!

Ralph Tremaine

By the by, that Model of 1902 First Change Target is a Model of 1905 if you live in Oregon.

Both of these were .38 Specials.

mrcvs · #7 03-13-2022, 01:23 PM

Ralph,

What was the condition like on the ones you sold for $2265 and $2750?

I would guess nicer than the one I purchased. The one I purchased certainly isn’t horrible, but I would have preferred a barrel with better condition. Then again, in TODAY’S market, given the difficulty in finding one, I don’t think a hammer price of $1150 isn’t horrible either, even if that’s before the 17% buyer’s premium, state sales tax, shipping, and FFL fees are incorporated into the final inclusive price.

Truth be known, I was willing to bid up to $1500 on this one, prior to any of the additional fluff, and so I am, in the end, fairly happy with the results.

delcrossv · #8 03-13-2022, 02:16 PM

Here's one I got a few years back. I thought I got a reasonable deal at $2k. 1902's being scarce, targets being scarcer, and nickel targets being the scarcest of all. (and it's really pretty!)

glowe · #9 03-14-2022, 08:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

How commonplace is a TARGET Model revolver in this model? They just don't seem to be that common.

And, are they more common in the .32-20 or .38 Special calibers?

Glad someone on the Forum got it. I was your competition right up to your last bid. Too bad that I did not know who I was bidding against since I was the one who ran you up from the $550 mark.

I picked up a Woodlawn Boys 1899 32 Winchester Target not long ago and discussed your very question with Mike Priwer. Both the 1899 and 1902 (no change) models were made in very similar numbers for that caliber, around 5,000 made. Mike was comfortable in estimating the 1899 Targets were no more than 5% of total production, while the 1902 moved up toward 10%. Low numbers logic was that no one back then knew much about the 1st Model revolvers and neither the 1899 or 1902 had yet established a reputation as a true target gun.

So 5% to 10% Targets would mean that each model saw somewhere between 250 and 500 Targets made. Add to that fact that survival rates would be no more that half after 120 years, we are talking about 125 1899 Targets and less than 250 1902 Targets. From what few is seen in public today, I believe those numbers are high, but 100 to 200 are still very low numbers that border on being rare.

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-p101002-jpg

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-p101002-jpg

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-p101006-jpg

mrcvs · #10 03-14-2022, 08:50 PM

Gary,

There was at least a third bidder as I was a phone bidder and didn’t even chime in until the $950 bid.

You have a good eye and so I know it’s probably a good one if you were my competitor for this one.

rct269 · #11 03-14-2022, 10:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Ralph,

What was the condition like on the ones you sold for $2265 and $2750?

I would guess nicer than the one I purchased. The one I purchased certainly isn’t horrible, but I would have preferred a barrel with better condition. Then again, in TODAY’S market, given the difficulty in finding one, I don’t think a hammer price of $1150 isn’t horrible either, even if that’s before the 17% buyer’s premium, state sales tax, shipping, and FFL fees are incorporated into the final inclusive price.

Truth be known, I was willing to bid up to $1500 on this one, prior to any of the additional fluff, and so I am, in the end, fairly happy with the results.

Well, surprisingly enough (or maybe not), the 1902 1st Change that sold for $2265 was the nicer of the two guns---a lot nicer---high 90's as I recall. The Model of 1902 was downright scruffy, but I'd never seen another one, and I guess a lot of other folks hadn't either.

Ralph Tremaine

bruce5781 · #12 03-15-2022, 07:29 AM

I have a 4", 5" & 6 1/2" target. None of which are pristine, the 4" is in the best condition. The 5" is 32-20, the others are 38 Spl.
The 5" is an original nickle gun which was re-finished and only about 10% of that remains, and has a ring in the barrel, but still a shooter. As I recall, I gave about 350 for it.
The 6" has factory checkered grip frame and trigger and was purchased from a member through Woodlawn Boys.

Regards,
Bruce

Sent from my SM-S127DL using Tapatalk

mrcvs · #13 03-21-2022, 07:09 AM

Is the Model of 1905 TARGET Model revolver more common, both in .32 - 20 and .38 Special, simply because a far greater number of Model of 1905 revolvers were produced than Model of 1902 revolvers, or was the percentage of Model of 1905 revolvers greater of the number of revolvers produced? Or both?

glowe · #14 03-21-2022, 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mrcvs

Is the Model of 1905 TARGET Model revolver more common, both in .32 - 20 and .38 Special, simply because a far greater number of Model of 1905 revolvers were produced than Model of 1902 revolvers, or was the percentage of Model of 1905 revolvers greater of the number of revolvers produced? Or both?

Mostly just a numbers game, more of any model made equals more targets. The "correction factor" is that early K frame guns were not marketed as target guns, but rather as "Military" guns. No one knew what the heck a 1st Model (1899) was, let alone how it shot. Most production estimates from reasoned sources above, with 5% of the 1899s and early 1902s, then building to 10% as sales increased and the gun's reputation as a "great shooter" were reported. Below is a 1900 S&W catalog page for the 38 Military. Interesting to mention that in 1900, the 32-20 was not listed in either the catalog or the price list.

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-1900-s-w-catalog1-jpg

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-1900-s-w-catalog1-jpg

Let me add that I have the 1903 catalog and it does mention that target sights were available for $1.75 extra.

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-1903-s-w-m-p-jpg

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-1903-s-w-m-p-jpg

stu1ritter · #15 03-21-2022, 12:39 PM

I have a 1902 Target that is not in very good condition but it shoots well and that's the fun of it all. Some here have even admired the "Patina". it was shipped from the factory on 7/11/1905 to Hibbard, Spencer and Bartlett in Chicago. 5" barrel and checkered walnut non-monogramed grips. It still has its original grips.

Stu
Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-img_2343-jpg

Smith & Wesson Model of 1902 TARGET Model Revolvers-img_2343-jpg

mrcvs · #16 03-28-2022, 07:43 PM

And here’s the one I recently purchased, serial number 6396.

mrcvs · #17 03-28-2022, 07:44 PM

And more photographs…

mikepriwer · #18 03-29-2022, 05:30 PM

Here are some pictures of an early 1902 target revolver, that i believe is the one that Ralph has referred to, in this thread. It now has a pair of Keith Brown smooth walnut concave non-medallion grips.

Regards, Mike Priwer

mikepriwer · #19 03-29-2022, 05:54 PM

Here is 30495, a .38 5" 1902 target. In about 1938, a gunsmith in Evanston Ill wrote the factory, describing this revolver as a 6.5" 1902, and requested a 5" barrel, that he intended to mount on the frame. Apparently, the factory no longer had any early 1902 barrels, so they sent him a later barrel that has a shoulder on it, and had the larger-diameter threads. He turned down the threaded portion to 0.500", and threaded it to the proper early 1902 thread specification of 1/2 x 36. He made some minor adjustments so that the cylinder would close properly.

While the gun looks like a 1902 1st change, it is not. It is an early 1902 no-change. I confirmed this by removing the 5" barrel, and test-installed an early `1902 barrel that I have; it fit perfectly.

Regards, Mike Priwer

rct269 · #20 03-29-2022, 06:07 PM

This (#21898 in Post 18) is the one I mentioned.

Ralph Tremaine

mikepriwer · #21 03-29-2022, 08:31 PM

Here is a very interesting .38 1902 8 3/8th inch target revolver. It was shipped to C.T.G. Armstrong, and described in the letter as having a "special order barrel". George Armstrong was a well-known shooter in the 1900 - 1920 era, and is mentioned several times in Doug Wesson's book "Bullet Holes".

The gun has a H.M. Pope-stamped barrel, and stamped with a Pope serial number on the bottom of the barrel. There is no question that Pope made the barrel: it is rifled counter-clockwise with 8 lands and grooves. The lands are about 4 times as wide as the grooves. This unique pattern is documented in an article written by Pope. Smith & Wesson rifling is clockwise, 6 lands and grooves of equal width.

Typically, but not always, revolvers were shipped to Pope by the owner of the gun, but in this case, it appears that the factory ordered a barrel from Pope, and installed it on the gun themselves, and then shipped the Pope-barreled revolver to its destination.

I assume this is the meaning of "special order barrel".

Regards, Mike Priwer

mrcvs · #22 08-20-2022, 08:38 PM

And here’s the factory letter for the revolver I posted photographs of in posts 16 & 17.

mikepriwer · #23 08-20-2022, 09:11 PM

I've started another thread in this section titled "Updating Survival Study for early .38 K-frame Target Revolvers". This is a survivor study for .38 targets, from serial 1 to serial 62450, covering 1899's, 1902's, and early 1905's. These guns all have the early lockwork and the early cylinder stop, and are all 4-screw frames.

You'll note, from the study, that the number of known survivors is very small. This probably means that the list is missing more guns than it already has. So, it was time to try to update it. The goal is to help with the decisions and discussions taking place here in this thread. It's not there yet, but hopefully with enough participation, we'll make some progress..

Regards, Mike Priwer