Guns of the Fed's 1920-1950

Bob,

The Super .38 was shipped on May 27, 1941. I wished I owned it!

Regarding Jelly's grip--it is unique.
JellyBryceDraw.jpg
 
Great multiframe exposure. His grip is definitely "unique".

He apparently had very large hands and exceptionally long fingers, especially the middle one. I have large hands and long fingers but when I try to grip a Magnum, with a grip adapter attached, as he is holding his, my fingers still don't come to the points on the gun or to each other as his do. ( To say nothing of the fact that it feels very insecure and unstable to my way of training.) It obviously worked for Jelly though.

His grip is the only one that I've seen that looks like it would benefit from a trigger spur.

In addition to the position of his middle finger, the web of his hand is well up on the frame knuckle and it appears that his ring finger is up against the grip adaptor. This high grip puts the forearm much more in line with the bore and would certainly aid in recovery in fast double action shooting.

Bob
 
Bob,

I forgot to answer your other question but, no, none of these RMs are in my database. I hope to get them in there someday.

It is interesting that Jelly chose a Colt Super .38 as a gift to Ladd, rather than a S&W Magnum.

Regards,
Kevin
 
Originally posted by kwill1911:
... is interesting that Jelly chose a Colt Super .38 as a gift to Ladd, rather than a S&W Magnum.

Regards,
Kevin
Click to expand...
Kevin; In those days the .38 Super was viewed by many as the "Gunmens' Gun" being much better than the .38 Special and also having more rounds that the .45 ACP version. Automatics were still looked down on by many because of 'too many things to work and thus too many more things to have go wrong.' Without a doubt the automatics are best in the hands of serious shooters and not the average Joe.

MAK
 
Kevin,

I thought the same thing about the choice of the Colt over the Smith, however as we know, the Super .38 preceeded the development of the .357 and it was very popular with lawmen of the era. Maybe he knew that was what Ladd wanted as a "Bar-b-cue gun".

I think it's instructive that the Colt shipped less than a month after Jelly became the EP office SAC. Nice "Thank You" gift, I'd say!

It would also be interesting to know if the gun shipped to the FBI office or to Bryce and how long it took Glahn to do the work. (I'm guessing that was the date shipped from the factory and not the day of the presentation.)

Bob
 
Mark,

Re: Your comment about the .38 Super being the "Gunman's gun".

I hope it isn't too much of a thread drift from "Federal Lawmen" to show this one. It was shipped in November 1936 to my wife's grandfather who was the Sheriff in Titus County Texas. Sorry that I don't have a good picture of just the gun but this shows his badges (Sheriff and Cotton Belt Special Ranger), along with his diamond stickpin, back up Smith with pearl grips, holster and his desk name plate. The gun shipped with the ivory grips and I still have the original box with the tiny IVORY label on the end.
Bob
picture.JPG
 
KKG/MAK (?),

As a long-time Colt Auto collector I'm pretty familiar with Super .38s and their history. But it still seems strange to me that Bryce chose one as a gift since, AFAIK, he never carried one--may not have ever owned one. Perhaps he knew what Ladd would like.

BTW, J. Edgar Hoover's Super .38 was just auctioned off last month.

Regards,
Kevin
 
Neat thread. My father entered on duty in the Border Patrol in 1940. His duty weapon was one of those Colt New Services in .38 Special. The family story was that in an effort to take the mystery out of it and make me less curious about his gun, he unloaded it and gave it to me to play with until my interest in it faded. It probably weighed more than I did at the time. As one of my friends once said, the experiment obviously failed and all it did was produce a monster. I wouldn't mind finding on of the original "USIS" marked guns or even a civilian version, but needless to say they aren't too common.

When he came back from WWII he and all the other retreads requalified with S&W M1917s; I have a picture of them on the range with the guns and military holsters. Not sure what they used thereafter but think they were Colts, possibly the OP-framed Border Patrol 4" .38 Specials.

I was privileged to know one of the original agents in Ness's Prohibition squad, an old geezer named Al "Wallpaper" Wolf. Met him and got to know him a little in Chicago in the mid 60s. He told me about shooting a guy above him on a flight of stairs with a Colt .45 auto. He said he hit the guy who then hollered, "You killed me!"; whereupon Wolf hollered back, "That's what I'm trying to do, you SOB." (Obviously a different time. Wolf was credited as an adviser on Costner's "Untouchables" movie.)

For the first half of my career you could carry just about anything as long as it was "American made"., .38 caliber or larger, and blued finish--no ivory, pearl, thumbrest, or otherwise conspicuous stocks." My impression then and now was that most federal agencies with pistoleros in them were equally relaxed in those days. Nowadays with "one size fits all" things may be easier for instructors and management weenies--but a helluva loss for some of us.

I still have a printout from the late 70s showing weapons in inventory, and it was a real Heinz 57 listing. Probably better than the average Cabela's "gun library".
 
According to a book I read recently about the attack on Blair House in 1950 in an effort to assassinate Harry Truman, the Secret Service presidental security detail carried Colt Detective Special revolvers with a Thompson locked in a cabinet in the basement of the residence. The White House police carried Colt Official Police revolvers.

rifles008.jpg
 
How about back up guns? I have to believe that small autos were probably carried for reserve weapons. During that time 1920's - 1950, hell, I wouldn't be shocked to learn that some of those fellows were packing top breaks for a backup piece either. There was an old time detective I once knew, he retired around 1955 or so. By 1975, he was pushing 80 + years old and took ill one afternoon. He called and asked me to drive him to his Doctor, so I obliged.

When we arrived sitting in front of the Doctor's office in the car, he handed me a .38 M&P, a pair of brass knuckles, a small blackjack and said "oh, I almost forgot" as he handed over a Colt New Line .22 single action he had concealed in his shirt pocket. That ole' boy went about pretty well heeled.

I suspect an awful lot of LEO's from that era did likewise. I have always carried 2 and on "high risk" occasions, 3.
 
I know this doesn't fit into the Fed area but thought I would throw it in as a point of interest. During the time frame 0f 1920-1950 there were still quite a few Texas Rangers carrying Colt SAA in 45 colt and a few with Colt 1911's. Also One I know of carried a Luger 9mm.
Just thought I'd throw my two bits in.
 
Did anyone mention that some Texas Rangers used S&W .44 Specials? Lone Wolf Gonzuallas (sp?) was one, and they were so well known on that force that the Rangers on a TV show carried them, Model of 1950 Military, I believe.

T-Star
 
Well this weekend I picked up a 2" square butt M&P to go with my 6" M&P.Now I ust need a 1911 and a Thompson to go with my fedora.
 
Originally posted by Curt Dawson:
Now I just need a 1911 and a Thompson to go with my fedora.
Click to expand...

Now, don't make fun of me! I wear a man's dress hat every day! Men dressing as men, instead of little boys... WHAT A CONCEPT!
icon_eek.gif


Scott
 
Registered Magnum

bettis1 said:
Kevin,

That is a "SUPER" Super!! And what a provenance...Ladd, Bryce and Glahn! Bryce became SAC of the El Paso office on April 29, 1941. What was the date of the presentation Colt?

On a related subject:

On page 97 of "Jelly Bryce-Legendary Lawman" the following statements are made:

"Another legend has it that because of his firearms prowness, Bryce had one of the first .357 Magnum revolvers produced by Smith & wesson. Some say he purchased it and some say it was presented to him. ...If D. A. Bryce purchased or was given one, the records do not reflect it. A letter in Smokey Hilbert's OCPD peronnel file shows that he and Lt. Newt Burns ordered two of the new guns for official duty purposes through the OCPD on Febuary 10, 1936. One of the guns was blued and one was nickeled, each costing $48."

Have any of these RM's shown up in your database?

Bob
Click to expand...

Newb here. I was researching Hilbert. He ordered a 3.5" blue and it was delivered in Dec. 1937. I have it. Received my letter last night. Very interesting man. I thought about sending it to the big gun show this weekend. What say you?
 
You have a true treasure there.............

...........do some good research on value before putting it on the market if you haven't already.

Love to see images of it. Do you have the holster, badges or any associated items from his career?

Best to you.
 
No badges, holsters. There are so few on the market, where do I start? It may have more local value than regional or national. Rock Island Auction?
 
Colt Official Police and killed in the line of duty

My uncle was a St. Paul Police Officer and later a Detective. He carried a Colt Official Police 6 inch, even when in his plain clothes assignment. (Probably due to financial factors in buying another sidearm.) In 1949 he was shot by a liquor store robber. My uncle, Alan Lee, was at the front door of the perp's girlfriend's residence when the perp emerged from behind the door and shot Det Lee twice, killing him instantly. The perp, James Hatcher, then leaped over my uncle's body and fled on foot to another building.

Officers later located Hatcher in this tenement, hiding under a mattress. They order him to surrender. Failing to do so, officers stepped back and emptied their guns into the mattress. Fifty years later, the Minneapolis paper ran a story about this tragic event. A day or so later, Det. Lee's son received a call from the emergency room doctor who both attended my uncle and James Hatcher, when each had been brought to the ER. The doctor assured my cousin that his father did not suffer from the wounds, that he was killed instantly. Further, that when examining Hatcher, he (the doctor) stopped counting after reaching 14 bullet holes in the body.
 
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