lawandorder
Member
Hoov I sent you a PM.
Guns of the Fed's 1920-1950
- Thread starter Curt Dawson
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8 yrs old...not bad. What exactly is the standing record for a thread brought back to life?
What an entrance! We would love to see pictures of this gun and here the full details of the letter!
I would never sell it at a gun show. JMO.
From reading Skeeter and others, it appears that the 38 Super was always very popular along the border.
Hoov
Member
What an entrance! We would love to see pictures of this gun and here the full details of the letter!
Well, stand by. I'm backing up my crackberry right this minute. You'll have to wait on the pics. The letter says Hilbert ordered one and it was shipped from Smith on Dec. 14, 1937. He was an OKCPD detective at the time. Shipped with a 3.5" barrel, Marble gold bead sight, U notch rear, hump back hammer and checkered Magna grips. It was sighted in at 25 yards with 38/44 Supper (misspelling is Roy, not me) Police .38 Special ammo using a dead center hold. Shipment was for a single unit.
The only thing different is the addition of a Tyler T-grip, which has obviously been there awhile.
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I'm glad it was resurrected, as I didn't catch it earlier. I really enjoyed it, THANX.
Hoov
Member
Mike Conti
Member
Too cool for school, Hoov!! Thanks for sharing this awesome piece of history!
PM sent
PM sent
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Hoov
Member
Turns out, Hilbert was involved with Wade, Frey and a bunch of the other big gamblers from my brief research. Seems there is a book out there that tells the story of those men and that era. I have had several members here tell me a little history and lead me down another path I did not know existed. Some of whom, their parents or grandparents served with Hilbert. For those of you not from Oklahoma, the story of Cattleman's Cafe is folklore that is actually truer and larger than the legend. Liquor by the wink pretty much sums up our state. Google it. It's funny.
Mike Conti
Member
Hey Hoov, when you picked up your awesome blaster, you didn't happen to see this one lying around by any chance, did ya'?
Hoov
Member
Hey Hoov, when you picked up your awesome blaster, you didn't happen to see this one lying around by any chance, did ya'?
Ummm...., unfortunately no. But, there is a possibility I know where a friend of my gun is. Tell me more about that one. Is it marked OKCPD? My friend has two RMs and one of them is.
Mike Conti
Member
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...ce-lucky-gun-photo.html?highlight=jelly+bryce
This is a link to another thread about it. A lot of people would be interested in just knowing it's in good hands like your Hilbert find.
All the best!
Mike
This is a link to another thread about it. A lot of people would be interested in just knowing it's in good hands like your Hilbert find.
All the best!
Mike
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I am surprised that no one has referred the OP to this article about the FBI:
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/8/22/a-history-of-fbi-handguns/
While the article could have been so much better than it was, it is a nice little summary. The best part about the article was the gallery of photos, which is apparently no longer available when you click on the link.
As to federal agency firearms from the 1920s to the 1950s, the FBI alone had the Colt Police Positive, Detective Special and variants, Colt Official Police, and various S&W K, J and N frame models.
The FBI tended to issue "duty" guns (four-inch barrels) even though they were to be carried concealed. The Bureau back then had a qualification course that had a stage at sixty (60) yards, and a duty weapon was essential.
The FBI pretty much always issued 38 Special revolvers, leaving the .357 Magnum in the armory, to be drawn when needed, although a great many agents found a way to get one checked out to them permanently.
The last revolver the Bureau issued, the Model 13, was chambered for .357 Magnum, but the standard issue ammo was still the 38 Special +P 158 grain LHP load, with the Magnum ammo authorized on a case by case basis.
An agent friend of mine told me of the time he went to qualify with his Model 13, and the range guy, just to mix it up, required each agent to qualify with the ammo matching the caliber marked on the agent's revolver. My friend was not a happy camper after that firearms day, as he was used to the milder 38 Special load.
From 1920 to 1950, FBI issued these, and perhaps others:
Colt Police Positive, 4 inch
Colt Detective Special, 2 inch
Colt Official Police, 4 inch
S&W M&P or Model 10, 4 inch
S&W Registered Magnum, 5 inch
S&W Model 19, 4 inch round butt
S&W Model 10, 2.5 inch round butt
S&W Model 13, 3 inch round butt
Authorized off-duty or back-up changed over the years, but at times included most steel frame 5 or 6 shot Colt or S&W revolvers. S&Ws in this category were Model 36, 49, 60, among others.
While J. Edgar Hoover and Clyde Tolson each had several handguns, most of those were gifts to them personally. Hoover's actual "bureau property issue gun," which he kept as his primary carry gun until his death, was his original 3 inch Colt .32 Pocket Positive, Serial Number 156600, and it was still checked out to him when he died. Clyde Tolson was issued a new 4 inch Model 10, Serial Number D138446, not terribly long before his death. While Hoover's issue Pocket Positive is still at Quantico, Tolson's Model 10 was unceremoniously destroyed in the "ordinary course of business" in 2001.
The Bureau also destroyed well over one hundred Registered Magnums which were still in service more than 50 years after they were first issued (a testament to the durability of the N Frame Magnum), this policy having been put into effect by the Janet Reno/Bill Clinton brain trust.
The Bureau never officially issued Colt .45 caliber 1911s, but they did issue a number of Colt 1911s in 38 Super. Actually, they would have been dressed in "A1" guise with the frame scallops, and all the A1 improvements.
I suspect most other federal agencies issued similar models, even if the agency did not have as colorful a history as the FBI.
Basically, it would be fair to say that the federal issue gun between 1920 and 1950 would have been a 2 inch or 4 inch Colt or S&W medium frame revolver in 38 Special. That answer to your original question would be correct perhaps 98% of the time.
Almost as interesting as what they carried is the topic of how federal agents were trained prior to Jeff Cooper teaching us all how to properly use the one-hand weapon, the pistol. Here is a short film you may find interesting:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQq6NhlXxk[/ame]
http://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2011/8/22/a-history-of-fbi-handguns/
While the article could have been so much better than it was, it is a nice little summary. The best part about the article was the gallery of photos, which is apparently no longer available when you click on the link.
As to federal agency firearms from the 1920s to the 1950s, the FBI alone had the Colt Police Positive, Detective Special and variants, Colt Official Police, and various S&W K, J and N frame models.
The FBI tended to issue "duty" guns (four-inch barrels) even though they were to be carried concealed. The Bureau back then had a qualification course that had a stage at sixty (60) yards, and a duty weapon was essential.
The FBI pretty much always issued 38 Special revolvers, leaving the .357 Magnum in the armory, to be drawn when needed, although a great many agents found a way to get one checked out to them permanently.
The last revolver the Bureau issued, the Model 13, was chambered for .357 Magnum, but the standard issue ammo was still the 38 Special +P 158 grain LHP load, with the Magnum ammo authorized on a case by case basis.
An agent friend of mine told me of the time he went to qualify with his Model 13, and the range guy, just to mix it up, required each agent to qualify with the ammo matching the caliber marked on the agent's revolver. My friend was not a happy camper after that firearms day, as he was used to the milder 38 Special load.
From 1920 to 1950, FBI issued these, and perhaps others:
Colt Police Positive, 4 inch
Colt Detective Special, 2 inch
Colt Official Police, 4 inch
S&W M&P or Model 10, 4 inch
S&W Registered Magnum, 5 inch
S&W Model 19, 4 inch round butt
S&W Model 10, 2.5 inch round butt
S&W Model 13, 3 inch round butt
Authorized off-duty or back-up changed over the years, but at times included most steel frame 5 or 6 shot Colt or S&W revolvers. S&Ws in this category were Model 36, 49, 60, among others.
While J. Edgar Hoover and Clyde Tolson each had several handguns, most of those were gifts to them personally. Hoover's actual "bureau property issue gun," which he kept as his primary carry gun until his death, was his original 3 inch Colt .32 Pocket Positive, Serial Number 156600, and it was still checked out to him when he died. Clyde Tolson was issued a new 4 inch Model 10, Serial Number D138446, not terribly long before his death. While Hoover's issue Pocket Positive is still at Quantico, Tolson's Model 10 was unceremoniously destroyed in the "ordinary course of business" in 2001.
The Bureau also destroyed well over one hundred Registered Magnums which were still in service more than 50 years after they were first issued (a testament to the durability of the N Frame Magnum), this policy having been put into effect by the Janet Reno/Bill Clinton brain trust.
The Bureau never officially issued Colt .45 caliber 1911s, but they did issue a number of Colt 1911s in 38 Super. Actually, they would have been dressed in "A1" guise with the frame scallops, and all the A1 improvements.
I suspect most other federal agencies issued similar models, even if the agency did not have as colorful a history as the FBI.
Basically, it would be fair to say that the federal issue gun between 1920 and 1950 would have been a 2 inch or 4 inch Colt or S&W medium frame revolver in 38 Special. That answer to your original question would be correct perhaps 98% of the time.
Almost as interesting as what they carried is the topic of how federal agents were trained prior to Jeff Cooper teaching us all how to properly use the one-hand weapon, the pistol. Here is a short film you may find interesting:
[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LmQq6NhlXxk[/ame]
Malysh
Member
I wasn't aware that the FBI officially issued any guns during the 1920s.
They weren't authorized to arrest, or carry guns until congress gave them that authority in 1934.
I am aware, though, that FBI agents purchased handguns privately and obtained legal carry permits in the field offices they worked in, depending on local and state laws.
Is that information incorrect, Shawn?
Thanks,
Mike
They weren't authorized to arrest, or carry guns until congress gave them that authority in 1934.
I am aware, though, that FBI agents purchased handguns privately and obtained legal carry permits in the field offices they worked in, depending on local and state laws.
Is that information incorrect, Shawn?
Thanks,
Mike
I went thru Quantico in 1986. Model 13 with 3" barrel was the issue gun at the time. Policy was you were to carry the .38 158 grain SWCHP ammo in the gun (Winchester was issued to me), but could carry .357 ammo as your reload(s). I carried a personal M66 3" loaded with the 38's and had a Desantis 2x2x2 pouch filled with .357 rounds on my belt and Safariland speedloaders with .357s in the briefcase. Issue .357 ammo was Winchester 145 grain Silvertips.
Also, no airweight guns were authorized, steel framed J frames only. Colts were also banned, I believe Colts were verboten because there were no Colt qualified armorers left at the Gun Vault.
Also, no airweight guns were authorized, steel framed J frames only. Colts were also banned, I believe Colts were verboten because there were no Colt qualified armorers left at the Gun Vault.
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S&WIowegan
US Veteran
I believe you are exactly correct, Mike. The original Bureau of Investigation was created as an investigative arm of DOJ and was staffed primarily with people who had expertise in accounting and law. Hoover was in charge for much of the 20s. Firearms were not authorized by Congress nor were they routinely issued. The Dillinger-style bank robbers of the early 30s created an opportunity for federal law enforcement and Hoover brilliantly answered the call(and Congress authorized weapons carry). Initially, most agents were untrained as gun toters. Some few experienced gunfighters like Bryce were recruited to be the first line of gunfighters for the FBI while agents got training. The FBI legend has grown to the point that legend exceeds reality.
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