robbt
Member
howdy , did Portland PD issue Smith & Wesson revolvers if so which ones ??
many thanks robbt
many thanks robbt
Portland PD , Sixguns
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Marc1911
Member
Portland Oregon or Portland Maine?
Venom6
Member
I joined PPB (it's called a "Bureau" there, not a "department", hence the B instead of a D) in 1975. Until I left in 1993 officers purchased their own handguns and handcuffs, but the Bureau specified the makes and models. It had to be a .38 Special Colt or S&W with a 4" or 6" barrel. In the late 70's the rules were changed to allow .357's (but they could only be loaded with bureau-issued .38+P's) and Rugers. In 1985 S&W 645's and SIG P220's were authorized (as was the Astra A80, because the chief owned one! Buy me a beer and I'll tell you the whole story).
So towards the end of the revolver era you could find Colt OP's (which I was told were issued in the 30's), a few Police Positive Specials (which the first female chief, Penny Harrington, had) and a whole slew of K and N frames. My last patrol partner carried a 6" Python. There were a few Security Sixes. Plainclothes/detectives could and did carry mostly J-frame smiths with a few Detective Specials and Agents, though the prestige pistol was the 2 1/2" Model 66 and was carried by those savvy enough to appreciate them and tenacious enough to track one down, as they were quite difficult to come by there for a while.
In the late 70's I became an instructor, and then an armorer. At that time we purchased fair numbers of 4" M19's for resale to new officers for duty guns on an on-going basis. This was during the Bangor Punta era, followed by Lear Sigler. Though our standards were not particularly high, we rejected 20% of the guns as unfit for service out of the box. They would either push off, have below minimum trigger pull weight, DCU (what laypersons would call timing) and other issues, such as the occasional K-frame trigger stop rotating down and blocking trigger movement. We did not know that things would change and so perhaps failed to appreciate such things as forged lockwork, pinned barrels, recessed chambers, and the absence of an internal lock.
My last duty revolver was a 4" 686 which had the sweetest DA trigger pull out of the box of any post war gun I've ever handled. I have since given it to my son. When I left the Bureau I was carrying a 645 which never failed me; it would even feed empty cases (and I think the city council would prefer that we carried only empty cases...). It had a gorgeous set of Spegal grips on it. OK, I also carried an Ingram M10 in a shoulder holster, which was of course completely unauthorized, but I was working the gang unit at the time and it seemed prudent.
Dang, you guys have taken me back twenty years!
Craig Ward (Venom6 actual)
So towards the end of the revolver era you could find Colt OP's (which I was told were issued in the 30's), a few Police Positive Specials (which the first female chief, Penny Harrington, had) and a whole slew of K and N frames. My last patrol partner carried a 6" Python. There were a few Security Sixes. Plainclothes/detectives could and did carry mostly J-frame smiths with a few Detective Specials and Agents, though the prestige pistol was the 2 1/2" Model 66 and was carried by those savvy enough to appreciate them and tenacious enough to track one down, as they were quite difficult to come by there for a while.
In the late 70's I became an instructor, and then an armorer. At that time we purchased fair numbers of 4" M19's for resale to new officers for duty guns on an on-going basis. This was during the Bangor Punta era, followed by Lear Sigler. Though our standards were not particularly high, we rejected 20% of the guns as unfit for service out of the box. They would either push off, have below minimum trigger pull weight, DCU (what laypersons would call timing) and other issues, such as the occasional K-frame trigger stop rotating down and blocking trigger movement. We did not know that things would change and so perhaps failed to appreciate such things as forged lockwork, pinned barrels, recessed chambers, and the absence of an internal lock.
My last duty revolver was a 4" 686 which had the sweetest DA trigger pull out of the box of any post war gun I've ever handled. I have since given it to my son. When I left the Bureau I was carrying a 645 which never failed me; it would even feed empty cases (and I think the city council would prefer that we carried only empty cases...). It had a gorgeous set of Spegal grips on it. OK, I also carried an Ingram M10 in a shoulder holster, which was of course completely unauthorized, but I was working the gang unit at the time and it seemed prudent.
Dang, you guys have taken me back twenty years!
Craig Ward (Venom6 actual)
Venom6
Member
Hello robbt: during my time there (1975-1991 active service) officers purchased their equipment and supplies from several different vendors. One was Nudelman's, a menswear store downtown; they had uniforms and some supplies like badges, holsters, flashlights, gloves, and some other items in the basement. There was another cool police supply outfit in Oregon City, whose name escapes me from this distant place. That's where I ordered the above-mentioned magnificent 686 4". As for Frisbees, yes, that was a small one-man leather shop on N. Greely Ave. When I hired on they supplied all our leather gear (which was minimal - gunbelt, holster, cuff case). Usually when I went in there I dealt with a younger native North American gal, who did in fact know the business. Don't know if it was Frisbee's daughter or someone else. Within a few years we went to the Safety Speed holster, which was a well-designed break-front, but not as good as some others (it was impossible to get a final firing grip on the revolver in the Safety Speed; you had to bump the gun forward, then shift your grip into final position as it rocked out of the holster). The first auto holsters were a superb Ernie Hanson design.
Mr. Venom6:
I've only visited Portland and that was still a very interesting and informative history of the PPB weapons.
Thanks for sharing your hands on knowledge, perhaps others could do the same regarding other LEAs.
I've only visited Portland and that was still a very interesting and informative history of the PPB weapons.
Thanks for sharing your hands on knowledge, perhaps others could do the same regarding other LEAs.
Marc1911
Member
Venom6 - you're bringing back all kinds of memories for me. I was a reserve with multnomah and then clackamas county SO's from from 1978 through 2002.
Multnomah County SO allowed you to purchase your privately owned duty weapons from them. My first duty weapon was a 4" Smith model 66 which was the only uniform duty weapon authorized for new employees in 1978. They charged me $175.00 at the time. I also carried a model 49 as backup.
The police distributor in Oregon City was SNC Distributors, they carried a lot of good stuff and the owner, Don Coon would give you way over resale value for any trade-ins, guns or leather or what have you.
After they went out of business one of his main salespeople named Gordon Wallace opened up 911 distributors and continued to do business until approximately 2000 when he also went out of business after losing the law enforcement Glock account for Oregon to Keiths sporting goods.
My wife worked for PPB for a time in the mid 80's and still has the 4" model 19 she purchased from the city for her duty weapon when she came to work.
If I recall correctly almost all the agencies in the tri-county area issued Ernie Hansen break front holsters as their duty holster. Took some getting used to to learn the draw technique but the holsters were state of the art for retention at that time.
Marc
Multnomah County SO allowed you to purchase your privately owned duty weapons from them. My first duty weapon was a 4" Smith model 66 which was the only uniform duty weapon authorized for new employees in 1978. They charged me $175.00 at the time. I also carried a model 49 as backup.
The police distributor in Oregon City was SNC Distributors, they carried a lot of good stuff and the owner, Don Coon would give you way over resale value for any trade-ins, guns or leather or what have you.
After they went out of business one of his main salespeople named Gordon Wallace opened up 911 distributors and continued to do business until approximately 2000 when he also went out of business after losing the law enforcement Glock account for Oregon to Keiths sporting goods.
My wife worked for PPB for a time in the mid 80's and still has the 4" model 19 she purchased from the city for her duty weapon when she came to work.
If I recall correctly almost all the agencies in the tri-county area issued Ernie Hansen break front holsters as their duty holster. Took some getting used to to learn the draw technique but the holsters were state of the art for retention at that time.
Marc
Wickahoney
US Veteran
Venom: I think the outfit in Oregon City was Northwest Police Supply. I went down to Portland from Idaho State Police in 1972 but I showed up just about the same time as Bruce Baker was appointed Chief and Goldshmidt was Mayor. I knew I didn't/wouldn't/couldn't fit in. I moved up the river and worked at Wasco County for 7 years till I came back to Idaho and got my degree so I could go to the Feds.
Geez I spent a ton of money at Northwest Police Supply!!!!!!
Marc: I just checked my S&W file folder and we/the county used Northwest.
I carried a Bianchi 5BHL Highride till OSP went to the Nelson Break fronts after one of the guys in Hood River got his duty weapon snatched out of those low ride swivel holsters they wore back then. After that the Sheriff order us to carry them to. The nice part was they were good about building one for the 5" Model 27 I carried back then. It's still out in the gun room in my leather box.
Oh, back to the original question, I carried a 4" S&W Model 15 with 38s in it. The only NON Magnum I carried in 20 something years.
Ross W Thomas
Great Basin Ranch
Owyhee County, ID
Geez I spent a ton of money at Northwest Police Supply!!!!!!
Marc: I just checked my S&W file folder and we/the county used Northwest.
I carried a Bianchi 5BHL Highride till OSP went to the Nelson Break fronts after one of the guys in Hood River got his duty weapon snatched out of those low ride swivel holsters they wore back then. After that the Sheriff order us to carry them to. The nice part was they were good about building one for the 5" Model 27 I carried back then. It's still out in the gun room in my leather box.
Oh, back to the original question, I carried a 4" S&W Model 15 with 38s in it. The only NON Magnum I carried in 20 something years.
Ross W Thomas
Great Basin Ranch
Owyhee County, ID
Just to let all you "Old Flat Foots" know that I really enjoyed your stories and appreciate your sharing. Thanks to all.
JoeS
Member
Its business and its competition. What do you expect?
Keith's an honest guy with a good reputation. If others want to stay in business they need to compete with him. Its hardly a dishonorable thing on Keith's part.
Venom6
Member
Well, this is great fun. Yes, I do remember SNC, and did way too much business with Don. But the one I was trying to remember was up on the high flats above Oregon City, and may have been as Wichahoney recollects. "Old Flat Foots"!? Sheesh, I've only been in the business now for 36 years, and still serve on two SWAT teams (though I will admit it gets a little tougher each year to keep up with the young bucks getting up and over the fences). Just a slow learner, I guess. Marc1911: if your wife served with the Bureau during the 80's I almost certainly knew her. Tell her hi for me. Robbt: many thanks for the photo of the Frisbee holster. I never carried one, but many of the old timers did (OK, so I'm a hypocrite!). On occasion, during a foot chase, the holster would get to gyrating in complete circles, and occasionally the pistol would come clattering out of the holster and go skidding down the pavement. The duty load when I got there was a 158 gr. jacketed softpoint. We went through the usual ACLU histrionics but finally adopted the JHP. It was 110 grains, and failed to penetrate adequately on numerous occasions. John Bocciolatte shot a gal in the hand, and the bullet penetrated said hand and badly bruised her abdomen. I'm not kidding. Steve Mosier shot a guy in the face at point blank range, and the bullet broke a tooth and knocked the guy unconscious, but merely lodged in his throat. I forget now if he spit it out or the doctor removed it with forceps. The list goes on and on. As lead range officer the best I could do was to increase the weight to 125 grains and talk them into going to +P. As the J-frames of the day were not rated for +P we issued 158gr. lead SWC HP's (at that time often referred to as the "Chicago Load," though I have heard it called other things including "The FBI Load" since, and the Chicago appellation applied to other loads. IIRC, when we went to .45's (optionally)in 1985-1986 the load was the 185 JHP. Shotguns were not routinely carried until the late 70's (Portland was and is an extremely liberal city), and then only due to the tireless efforts of Off. Paul Maxey. The load was 9-pellet 00 buck for the first few years, then the 12-pellet "short mag.;" the guns were initially Ithaca 37's with eighteen inch cylinder bore barrels, parkerized, with the Ray-Bar rifle sights and four-round magazine tubes, and later Smith and Wesson Model 3000's (basically a Rem. 870 clone with a slight re-engineering to minimize the occasional tendency of the 870's to double feed onto the carrier) with synthetic stocks and also a four-round capacity. I did fight with them several times but never had to reload (that 12-pellet buck was devastating, and kicked like H-E double hockey stick). Better quit now before I get too maudlin.
Hi Venom6, many thanks for the information , its really great . I reside on the east coast and to find info on the west coast holster makers is great , many thanks , below are two additional Fribee holsters one with a trigger lock [ I thought that was only a east coast boo-boo] many thanks again , robbt
I'm glad you like Keith, and hope you enjoy the gun show law he helped get passed in around 1999! Keith told me personally that he wanted that law to eliminate all the private dealers at gun shows. Keith was not openly in support of that law, but behind the scenes he did whatever he could to get it passed, as he felt it too would make things better for him.
Is it good business to eliminate the competition? Sure! Good for the guy who wants all the business, but bad for the consumer, and bad for the gun owners.
Is it good business to eliminate the competition? Sure! Good for the guy who wants all the business, but bad for the consumer, and bad for the gun owners.
Originally posted by robbt:
howdy boys , here a picture of a Frisbee Clamshell , it started my curiosity about Portland , many thanks for all your posts robbt
ps , what was the duty load ???
JoeS
Member
Originally posted by robbt:
... two additional Fribee holsters one with a trigger lock [ I thought that was only a east coast boo-boo] many thanks again , robbt
The Audley style holster and the clamshell remind me that I just recently saw a 1970 holster article that cited the clamshell as an Audley patent. New to me, if true.
I've previously seen these references for clam shell makers: Safety Speed, Speed Safety (two different companies), Jewett, JAT Industries[Jicarilla Apache Tribal Industries], and Hoffman and Sons.
Also tell me more about Ernie Hansen. Google led me to the Wilson pistol endorsement page, but not much else.
Venom6
Member
robbt: thank you for the excellent photos. Of the guys who carried Frisbees, I think all or most all of them were of the flap style.
SG-688: fascinating. I had no idea about JAT. As for Ernie Hansen, he was a Lincoln City police officer and detective (who later made chief), and well known and well respected in both the law enforcement and practical shooting communities in the Pacific Northwest. He started making holsters for himself and fellow officers in his garage, and wound up designing a superb duty holster in which the security strap was automatically released when a firing grip was obtained on the butt, due to a rearward jutting paddle extension of the strap (like a thumb-break, only different...). It was secure and fast and very well made; it was my favorite duty holster during my time with PPB.
From 1986 (when we began the transition to autos) until I left active service in 1991 if you wanted to carry an auto you had to buy all the gear yourself, including the holster and mag pouches, which the Bureau specified but did not issue. If you preferred the revolver, you still had to buy it yourself, but they would issue the Safety Speed break-front and a double-dump pouch. I carried the dump pouch behind the holster, and a personally-purchased/department-approved double speed loader pouch in front, right of center (I learned early in my career that gunfights were statistical anomalies, and even though I was told the "average" gunfight was 2.8 rounds, I've never been in any gunfight where I felt anything about it was average. And I damn sure didn't want to run out of bullets. Neither have I ever been in a fight where I wanted a smaller gun or fewer cartridges. But I digress; sorry).
By the time of the transition I was assigned to Intelligence, and then the Gang Unit, so was no longer an instructor and had little or no influence on the equipment, but I whole-heartedly approved of the selection of the Hansen holster, which was top-flight in all respects in my opinion. Having said that, there were a few salty and magnificent old beat cops who doggedly retained their blue-worn pre-M10 M&P's in their beloved Frisbee holsters right up until they retired (forceably or not). Best regards to all.
SG-688: fascinating. I had no idea about JAT. As for Ernie Hansen, he was a Lincoln City police officer and detective (who later made chief), and well known and well respected in both the law enforcement and practical shooting communities in the Pacific Northwest. He started making holsters for himself and fellow officers in his garage, and wound up designing a superb duty holster in which the security strap was automatically released when a firing grip was obtained on the butt, due to a rearward jutting paddle extension of the strap (like a thumb-break, only different...). It was secure and fast and very well made; it was my favorite duty holster during my time with PPB.
From 1986 (when we began the transition to autos) until I left active service in 1991 if you wanted to carry an auto you had to buy all the gear yourself, including the holster and mag pouches, which the Bureau specified but did not issue. If you preferred the revolver, you still had to buy it yourself, but they would issue the Safety Speed break-front and a double-dump pouch. I carried the dump pouch behind the holster, and a personally-purchased/department-approved double speed loader pouch in front, right of center (I learned early in my career that gunfights were statistical anomalies, and even though I was told the "average" gunfight was 2.8 rounds, I've never been in any gunfight where I felt anything about it was average. And I damn sure didn't want to run out of bullets. Neither have I ever been in a fight where I wanted a smaller gun or fewer cartridges. But I digress; sorry).
By the time of the transition I was assigned to Intelligence, and then the Gang Unit, so was no longer an instructor and had little or no influence on the equipment, but I whole-heartedly approved of the selection of the Hansen holster, which was top-flight in all respects in my opinion. Having said that, there were a few salty and magnificent old beat cops who doggedly retained their blue-worn pre-M10 M&P's in their beloved Frisbee holsters right up until they retired (forceably or not). Best regards to all.
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