Odd Stance on a "Bear Gun" Caliber

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Kid44

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I found an article on "bear protection guns" from 2002. In the article Jeff Cooper was quoted as saying the best up close and personal gun for protection against a bear was a snub nose .357 magnum with "pointed bullets". This is from the Sept. 2002 issue of Guns & Ammo magazine. This is from a
"bear defense" course that was held at his school, Gunsite.

I enjoy bear threads and stories as much, or more than the next guy. While a .357 may be on my list, depending on the location, types of bears, etc. it isn't at the top of the list.
We all have our opinions, fantasies and actual experiences regarding bears. Let's hear yours.
 
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I would like to read the justification of the 357 over a 44 mag, any chance you can scan the page and post it?
I would guess it may have something to do with being able to get more rounds off faster? The theory that 6 quick rounds of 357 mag is better than 2 rounds of 44 mag in the same time frame before the bear closes the distance to attack?

I have a 460XVR, but I don't think I could fire it fast enough and still be accurate enough to want to carry it over my 44's. Aside from the fact it has a 7" barrel and weighs a little more than a volkswagon, it does have some kick with heavy loads and the weight precludes any kind of "quick draw" from a holster. Hunting yes, it would be the go to handgun, but in an "oh ****" sudden bear attack, its too slow and cumbersome...

Given the choice I would either carrry my 3" 629 or my 4" Anaconda. Either of them I am pretty quick to draw and can empty 6 rounds into a paper plate at 10 yards in under 5 seconds. If I need more than that to survive a bear attack, I need a large caliber, short barreled rifle... or a claymore... or close in air support...
 
I live in black bear country and have encountered several over the years including females with one or two cubs. Last 4th of July one came within a yard of our deck with five people on it before leaving the area. Black bears don't get all that big and my bear defense weapon while fishing and hiking is a snub nose Md 649 in .357 or my Md 681. I've never had to fire a round or shoot at a bear but I feel pretty confident with these guns and the .357 caliber. I think Jeff Cooper's advice is pretty good.
 
Cooper had the benefit of observing lots of folks actually use their firearms in conditions that allowed him to see what people are best able to handle.

He also had more experience with big game that can bite or gore than I do.

His judgement about effective firearms wasn't based on gee whiz balistic tables and balistic gel.

I'd defer to his judgment.
 
I lived in Alaska for over 30 years and wouldn't even consider carrying anything less than a 454 Casull. Before I moved out last year my favorite revolver to carry was a S&W 500 with 4 inch barrel.

Sometimes I think Cooper was either stupid or hitting the pipe to often.
 
I would think this really depends on the species/size of the bear in question. I would surmise it will take significantly more oomph to penetrate enough to neutralize a 1000lb grizz (or however big a big grizz is) than a 300lb Black bear...

It's kind of hard to make a sweeping declaration for "bear protection" when the mass of a bear can vary so greatly from one species/area to another...

Just my novice opinion and quite possibly as wrong as it gets...

I kind of live in black bear country but have yet to see one in the wild where I live. BUT, the DEC recently opened the area I live in to bear hunting..so there are enough of them to hunt I suppose... When I am in the woods for reasons other than hunting I frequently carry my m19 or 1911... That may change if/when I encounter my first Yogi.

One thing I find interesting: In my time here, I have seen the question of using 357 for deer hunting come up alot. And quite a few people make the case that 357 is not the most effective for deer based on their own real experience afield. So if not "ideal" for the average deer of 150lb or so, seems a bit of a stretch to propose it's a good bear defense weapon??

But the quicker follow-up shots is a valid point...

Just thinking out loud and typing what I'm thinking here...

Interesting thread topic
 
Last edited:
RIDE-RED 350r said:
I would think this really depends on the species/size of the bear in question. I would surmise it will take significantly more oomph to penetrate enough to neutralize a 1000lb grizz (or however big a big grizz is) than a 300lb Black bear...
Click to expand...

What if you are attacked by a Koala bear?

Would a 25 acp do?

How about a slingshot?
 
Another bear thread! SO HAPPY!!!! *dances* :D

If I am deliberately hunting bear with a handgun I'm going to think seriously about a .454, .460, or a .500. However, I have no plans to hunt a bear with a handgun. I do want to do it someday, but I'll be bringing a rifle in .35 Whelen when I go.

So that brings us back to self defense against bears.

Sometimes I think Cooper was either stupid or hitting the pipe to often.
Click to expand...

Au contraire!

Colonel Cooper was neither stupid nor high, and I do believe he was exactly on track. The average shooter, let's say me, medium to short in height depending on your point of view, average build, not able to leap tall buildings in a single bound, etc. So if you are a foot taller, 50 pounds heaver or just built like a weight lifter then we're different but - if you're an average shooter - then you don't have much over me in terms of what you can handle effectively in handguns.

Thus, I can state categorically that I can accurately shoot six rounds out of any of my .357 Magnum revolvers (real, steel .357s, not Scandium things simply capable of handling the cartridge) - loaded with full house magnum cartridges - in a relatively short period of time.

The average shooter with experience can do that.

The average shooter cannot do that with full house .44s and up. Some guys can, I won't say it cannot be done. But that's not average. If I have a bear, at 400 pounds or 1200 pounds, thinking about making a run at me, from any distance, I want 6 rounds of high impact lead hitting his body. That says .357 Magnum. Cooper was correct.

If the bruin is still coming after that, well, then it's time to say adios, sayonara, good bye and good luck.

Putting my money where my mouth is, I was in bear country this past summer and that's what I brought with me, a 4" Ruger Service Six, with which I am pretty darned good - no brag, just fact. I could have brought any of my other .357s, including my short barreled ones, except I was putting the gun on a plane and I didn't want to risk my S&Ws. ;)

***GRJ***
 
I always hike in bear country with another person.
I only carry a little .380 pocket auto for bear.
If a bear attacks, I will shoot the other person in the knee and run away!:D
Sorry, couldn't help myself.

I carry a 44mag or 45 colt, but I am mostly in black bear country.
 
I guess this might be "off topic" but I dunno. I aint never even seen a bear, except in a zoo or tv. I prob never will where I live ( east ky ). I think if I lived in BIG bear country my main weapon would be a Rem 870 short barrel with 7 shot cap, loaded with 3" Buckshot, with a 44 as a sidearm, and a exmother inlaw as a decoy. Regards Ernie

P.S., I am 60 so running shoes wouldn't be of much use.lol
 
I don't know about a snubby, but I think Coopers theory about using a 357 mag is sound.

I have shot a few black bears with rifles and handguns. Unless spine or brain shot, they seldom drop in their tracks (OK, maybe a 125lbs bear hit in the shoulder with a 500 S&W) Browns and grizz's, even less so, I would think.

Based on the above, and the goal of stopping one RIGHT NOW, I would think a 9mm high cap auto loaded with flat point FMJ might be perfect. Easy to shoot quickly and accurately. Plenty of penetration (Its bone we are talking, not armor plate) Aim for the brain, and don't stop shooting until the bear is down, or your lunch.

Killed a "funny" black bear years ago with a head shot using a 45 acp, 230 FMJ load. It worked.

Larry
 
ErnieDeBord said:
I guess this might be "off topic" but I dunno. I aint never even seen a bear, except in a zoo or tv. I prob never will where I live ( east ky ). I think if I lived in BIG bear country my main weapon would be a Rem 870 short barrel with 7 shot cap, loaded with 3" Buckshot, with a 44 as a sidearm, and a exmother inlaw as a decoy. Regards Ernie

P.S., I am 60 so running shoes wouldn't be of much use.lol
Click to expand...
The 870 would probably do fine against a black bear, but buckshot will not likely take down grizzly or brown bear. Their skin and bones are very difficult to penetrate, and solid bullets are preferred. Buckshot gives up a huge amount of energy when it hits fur and flesh, and it's unlikely that it would break bone. It certainly is unlikely that it would penetrate a bear's skull.

If I knew I were going to be in country around grizzly or brown bear, I'd be sorely tempted to carry a rifle chambered in .338 Win Mag.
 
A "bear protection gun"? Whoever heard of such a thing? What a novel idea. :rolleyes:
 
The Colonel may have been right for a couple of reasons. It is true that most folks could rapidfire the .357 faster, and it's also true that the .357 pointed slug would have a smaller impact area, thus finding less resistance and penetrating deeper in hopes of clipping the central nervous system. Or it may be that the heavier .44 slug might penetrate better. I guess the answer is to split the difference and carry a .41 magnum. :D
 
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