Musing and questions about optics...

Ladyfox · May 1, 2010

***LONG POST WARNING***

I've been going over my shopping list and came to the optics section. After re-familiarizing myself with the posts here regarding optics, and research elsewhere, I had some thoughts I wished to shoot by you guys. But before I do that I'll go ahead and list my goals on this first:

Magnification desired: 4x32 fixed, 1-4X28 variable, or 1.25-4X24 variable
Illuminated or non-Illuminated: Illuminated
Compact or Full: Compact
Maximum range: 100 yards
Minimum range: 50 yards
Price: $100 max (not including mount)

Now, with that in mind here are the thoughts/questions I had that I was hoping some of you could illuminate:

1. Parallax - Now, from what I could find here is the general school of thought regarding this:

Centerfire: set to 100 yards
Rimfire: set to 35 or 50 yards
Shotgun: set to 75 yards

From what I could ascertain if you used a 100 yard parallax scope and tried sighting in at 50 yards you could get a 4 to 6 inch variance in error. This is why most references I could find regarding rimfire scopes suggested getting one that had an adjustable parallax or one fixed at 50 yards.

So, my question to you all who have had some experience with this is how critical is this and should I stick to 50 yard or adjustable models based upon my criteria?

2. Red-dot and 3x or 5x Magnifier or fixed 4x32 scope

Right now I'm bouncing between either one or the other being my first optical purchase with the other following later. From what I could find having a 2 MOA dot covers something like a 1/2 inch at 25 yards, 1 inch at 50 yards, and 2 inch at 100 yards versus a 4 MOA dot covering 1 inch at 25 yards, 2 inch at 50 yards, and 4 inch at 100 yards. So this would point towards the 2 MOA being preferred for the ranges I was looking at.

That said, I would think that a fixed 4x32 would be better for the purpose of longer ranges but would suffer at shorter distances or would a red-dot/magnifier setup be better?

3. Scope selection

Here is what I came up with after looking at what a lot of folks had on here as well as some other choices:

100 yard Parallax

TruGLO TRU-BRITE XTREME 4x32 TACTICAL COMPACT RIFLE SCOPE TG8504BT
http://www.opticsplanet.net/truglo-4x32-crossbow-rifle-scope-with-mounting-rings.html

Leapers 5th Gen 4X32 Mini CQB Scope - TS Platform SCP-432ML1W
Leapers 5th Gen 4X32 Mini CQB Scope - TS Platform SCP-432ML1W FREE S&H SCP-432ML1W. Leapers 5th Gen Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

Leapers AccuShot 3XT139 CQB Scope - TS Platform SCP-T139
Leapers AccuShot 3XT139 CQB Scope - TS Platform SCP-T139 FREE S&H SCP-T139. Leapers Accushot Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

Leapers 5th Gen 1.25-4X24 1inch Long Eye-relief CQB Scope SCP-1254L1
Leapers 5th Gen 1.25-4X24 1inch Long Eye-relief CQB Scope SCP-1254L1 FREE S&H SCP-1254L1. Leapers 5th Gen Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

Leapers AccuShot 1-4X28 30mm Long Eye Relief CQB Scope SCP3-1428L1
Leapers AccuShot 1-4X28 30mm Long Eye Relief CQB Scope SCP3-1428L1 FREE S&H SCP3-1428L1. Leapers Accushot Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

35 yard Parallax

CenterPoint AR22 4x32mm Compact
http://www.crosman.com/optics/ar22/CP432C

Leapers 4X32 9inch Compact Scope, 5.5inch Long Eye Relief, Angled Obj, Sapphire Coating SCP-432MDLDTS
Leapers 4X32 9inch Compact Scope, 5.5inch Long Eye Relief, Angled Obj, Sapphire Coating SCP-432MDLDTS FREE S&H SCP-432MDLDTS. Leapers 5th Gen Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

50 yard Parallax

CenterPoint AR22 4x32mm Compact
http://www.crosman.com/optics/ar22/CP432C

Leapers 4x32 Crossbow/Airgun Scope SCP-CR432L5
Leapers 4x32 Crossbow/Airgun Scope SCP-CR432L5 FREE S&H SCP-CR432L5. Leapers Golden Image Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

Unknown yard Parallax

Primary Arms 1-4X 24 Illuminated Scope
Primary Arms 1-4X 24 Illuminated Scope

I mainly broke these up by parallax so that everyone would have a slightly easier time choosing what works for them. ^_^

Myself, I'm torn between the two CenterPoint scopes and the two Leapers ones with the nod slowly going towards the Leapers due to the illumination that is built into them. While I'm sold on the Primary Arms red-dot sights the unknown parallax on the 1-4x has me giving that one a pass unless someone can confirm what it's set to.

Did anyone have any particular thoughts on these one way or the other?

stevegartx · May 1, 2010

I called Burris Scopes to recommend a scope . They suggested A Timberline with adjustable parallax . I know is out of your 100.00 Price range . I looked at several different scopes ,i found nothing i was going to happy about (Parallax) . I Finally decided with Burris Timberline 4.5x-14x32 . I know funds are limited ,but if settle for something . You may not happy about your purchase . Midwayusa seems to have some good prices . This is just my opinion .

HalfSwiss · May 2, 2010

I've been shooting center fire scopes on rimfires for many years with no problem. As I recall, parallax has an effect when you are viewing through the scope off-center.

Dragon88 · May 2, 2010

You are thinking this out way too much for a plastic rifle shooting 22lr inside 100 yards. Forget about parallax and all that and get a scope with the magnification you want and with optics that are acceptably sharp to you for the price. Go to a store with a good selection and try before you buy. Heck Wal-Mart sells scopes which would match your 15-22 perfectly.

~tc~ · May 2, 2010

What are you going to use the gun for?

IMHO, 4X is too much for the range we are shooting at (<100yds) with a 22LR - just not enough field of view, and I went with a low magnification.

Personally, I would rate the optics brightness/quality (lens design, coating, etc) more important than illumination or parallax adjustment.

I started a thread about low magnification scopes that has my reviews of looking through A LOT of scopes (pretty much every 1ish - 4ish magnification scope out there it seems). I ended up with a Swift 1.5-4.5x32 because the optics were brighter and clearer than anything else in my price range (well, almost at ANY price)

Sub95 · May 2, 2010

I went with the center point 4-16x40mm (walmart $70.00) it is kinda big for this rifle but i can see animals at 100+ yards with no problem , most zoom i might use is 8-12 depending on background color and how small the animal is.

JohnK · May 2, 2010

I just mounted the Tru-Glo 4X32 on an old/new Marlin Mountie. Like it a lot.

I does have a reduced field of view, about 24 feet at 100 yards, but is clear, and bright.

Only eight inches long (there is where the reduced FOV comes from) looks right on a short rifle.

At rimfire ranges, parallax is minimal. Adjustments are accurate. Rings have four screws per ring (good).

Color me happy, $ 50 from Midway

ChattanoogaPhil · May 2, 2010

Parallax in low power scopes is insignificant. IMO, you would do well to remove it from the list of criteria. Size, weight and clarity/brightness of glass are of greater value for consideration and comparison.

Weight. You've got some monsters on your list such as the Primary Arms 1-4x. The scope is 17oz, plus a mount like the PEPR is close to 9oz. 26oz of optics.... One of the great things about the 15-22 is it's light weight.

Size - The red dot + magnifier set ups look real cool... but it's big & bulky and you're back to adding a fair amount of weight.

Glass - Dime store optics aren't great. Some are better than others. You'll have to look through a few to find something that you like.

Go to a gun show and look through a bunch of optics. There's a gun show this weekend at the Cow Palace. They'll have all sorts of scopes for you to check out. Nothing you read here will substitute for your own eyes looking through different optics and finding something you'd like to try.

Gun show listings - http://www.gunshows-usa.com/california.htm

OKFC05 · May 2, 2010

Cheap scopes are....well, cheaply made. Things like field of view, exit pupil size, and clarily are as important as parallax.

I use the Leupold Rimfire for .22 LR and .22Mag scopes:

FX-I 4x28mm Rimfire Riflescope
Leupold® Rimfire riflescopes are built and tested to the same high standards as all Golden Ring® riflescopes.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The large, 7mm exit pupil transmits more usable light through the scope to your eye.
Parallax adjusted for 60 yards.
Micro-friction adjustment dials marked in ¼-MOA increments.
Leupold’s standard multicoat lens system delivers a sight picture that’s rich in visual detail and contrast.
Incredible ruggedness – tested to the same standards as all Golden Ring riflescopes.
Absolute waterproof and fog proof integrity – each is ready for a lifetime in the field, in all conditions.
The generous, forgiving eyebox is a must for fast target acquisition.
A durable Leupold Scope Cover is included to protect your valuable FX™-I Rimfire riflescope during transport or when not in use.
Covered by the Leupold Full Lifetime Guarantee.

about $220

BELT_FED · May 2, 2010

A friend just ordered a hammmers red dot that has the t dot in it... for 50 bucks... now I've got 1 on the way... they r nice clean and clear...and the t dot is crisp... great optic

Ladyfox · May 2, 2010

Dragon88 said:
You are thinking this out way too much for a plastic rifle shooting 22lr inside 100 yards. Forget about parallax and all that and get a scope with the magnification you want and with optics that are acceptably sharp to you for the price. Go to a store with a good selection and try before you buy. Heck Wal-Mart sells scopes which would match your 15-22 perfectly.

Oh, I fully admit that is probably what I'm doing however I'm looking at this as an excercise beyond just the 15-22. Consider, until I started really digging into this I really had little to no idea on exactly what factors came into play regarding scopes and how they are used.

Last thing I wished to do was just pick whatever scope was popular, slap it on, and not really give much thought about it. Just strikes me as being lazy IMHO and last thing I wished to do is be ill-informed about this topic since I'll be approaching this with other rifles sometime in the future.

~tc~ said:
What are you going to use the gun for?

IMHO, 4X is too much for the range we are shooting at (<100yds) with a 22LR - just not enough field of view, and I went with a low magnification.

Personally, I would rate the optics brightness/quality (lens design, coating, etc) more important than illumination or parallax adjustment.

I started a thread about low magnification scopes that has my reviews of looking through A LOT of scopes (pretty much every 1ish - 4ish magnification scope out there it seems). I ended up with a Swift 1.5-4.5x32 because the optics were brighter and clearer than anything else in my price range (well, almost at ANY price)

As I noted to Dragon88 the primary goal of this excersise beyond finding a scope for my soon-to-arrive 15-22 MOE was to become familiar with the overall mechanics of how scopes functioned and what affects their performance. You are correct in that the primary use WILL affect most if not all people in their choice. In my case the mission is three-fold:

a. Locate an all-weather day/night scope that will allow for quickly and accurately engaging targets across the effective range of the 22lr from 25 to 100 yards.

b. To be effective on the use of either a 5.56 or 7.62 NATO rifle across the same ranges (no, the scope would not be transplanted from rifle-to-rifle another one of same make would be purchased). Remember, I'm looking at this as a short to medium range scope and not something to be used beyond 100 yards since different factors come into play. And besides, there is'nt a range where I am that goes beyond 100 yards.

c. To retain what some like to call the "tacticool" look of an AR-style rifle without trying to turn it into some kind of 10/22 pretender with a long-tube scope.

I did some digging for the scope you called out and was it this one?

Swift 1.5-4.5x32mm Premier Waterproof Matte Riflescope - 648M Rifle scope (SRP648M)
Swift 1.5-4.5x32mm Premier Waterproof Matte Riflescope - 648M Rifle scope FREE S&H SRP648M. Swift Riflescopes.

It sounds like you went down a similar road I did in that beyond 4x it was just silly due to the engagement ranges that would be practical for a 22lr. Beyond 100 yards you're entering the precision shooting ranges which is an entire different category.

Regarding the brightness/quality how does this affect how the optic works in a low-light situation? Now, granted, you're probably asking "***?! Why is that important?" and the answer is that I'm wishing to become better familar with how some factors affect optics so as to be better informed in my choice.

It's funny that you mention the Swift I was looking at that one but had discounted it due to the lack of illumination. But, it looks like I may have to give it a second look. I am a bit concerned however about how the optics will function since it's parallax is set at 100 yards which I had assumed would kill it's effective abilities at shorter distances or is this not really true?

OKFC05 said:
Cheap scopes are....well, cheaply made. Things like field of view, exit pupil size, and clarily are as important as parallax.

I use the Leupold Rimfire for .22 LR and .22Mag scopes:

FX-I 4x28mm Rimfire Riflescope
Leupold® Rimfire riflescopes are built and tested to the same high standards as all Golden Ring® riflescopes.

You must mean this one:

Leupold FX-I 4x28mm Rimfire Rifle Scope FREE S&H 58670, 58680. Leupold Rimfire Riflescopes, Leupold Riflescopes.

Pretty nice in that they allow you to customize it to your taste as well for that price. Looking at the pictures I have to ask is'nt it pretty big and would extend past the receiver portion of the upper rail?

ChattanoogaPhil said:
Parallax in low power scopes is insignificant. IMO, you would do well to remove it from the list of criteria. Size, weight and clarity/brightness of glass are of greater value for consideration and comparison.

Weight. You've got some monsters on your list such as the Primary Arms 1-4x. The scope is 17oz, plus a mount like the PEPR is close to 9oz. 26oz of optics.... One of the great things about the 15-22 is it's light weight.

Size - The red dot + magnifier set ups look real cool... but it's big & bulky and you're back to adding a fair amount of weight.

Glass - Dime store optics aren't great. Some are better than others. You'll have to look through a few to find something that you like.

Go to a gun show and look through a bunch of optics. There's a gun show this weekend at the Cow Palace. They'll have all sorts of scopes for you to check out. Nothing you read here will substitute for your own eyes looking through different optics and finding something you'd like to try.

Gun show listings - California Gun & Knife Shows

Interesting. Can you explain why the parallax at low power is a non-factor? Everything I read pretty much stated that for variable ranges this would be a critical factor than for set ranges. Now, granted, I could be mis-interpreting some of this but there is a LOT of scope info out there and it's difficult to weed out what is important and what is not.

You do make a good point about weight on these which is why I really tried to stick with the compact-style scopes when I put my list together. I mean, I'm not looking for some honking long tube to slap on no matter how nice it is to me those kinds of optics are reserved for fancy bolt-action rifles.

However, that said, I'm willing to accept the weight IF they perform within the criteria I'm looking for.

Was going to go down to the Cow Palace when I saw the show there but judging from the last time I went the prices there are WAY high since most folks know that SF folks are loaded.

But, rest assured once I narrow my choices down a bit I'm going to be hitting some local stores to move onto the next step. Besides, you know how girls like to window-shop.

After posing this up I found some parallax-free scopes I wished to add to the discussion:

Adjustable Parallax

Leapers Accushot 30 mm TF 3 SWAT 3-9x 44 mm Compact Adjustable Objective Mil-Dot Illuminated Rifle Scope SCP3-EM3944AOMDL
Leapers Accushot 30 mm TF 3 SWAT 3-9x 44 mm Compact Adjustable Objective Mil-Dot RGB EZ TAP Illuminated Rifle Scope SCP3-EM3944AOMDL FREE S&H SCP3-EM3944AOMDL. Leapers Accushot Riflescopes, Leapers

Leaper 5th Gen Bug Buster 3-9 x 32mm AO Mini Rifle Scope SCP-M392AOMDL
Leaper 5th Gen Bug Buster 3-9 x 32mm AO Mini Rifle Scope SCP-M392AOMDL FREE S&H SCP-M392AOMDL. Leapers UTG Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

Leapers 5th Gen 4X32 Mini Size A.O. Range Estimating Mil-Dot Red/Green Illuminated Scope SCP-432AOMDL2
Leapers 5th Gen 4X32 Mini Size A.O. Range Estimating Mil-Dot Red/Green Illuminated Scope SCP-432AOMDL2 FREE S&H SCP-432AOMDL2. Leapers 5th Gen Riflescopes, Leapers Riflescopes.

ChattanoogaPhil · May 2, 2010

Here's a good explanation of parallax.

Particular to the piece: "Scopes of lower magnification are not usually supplied with parallax adjustment either, because at lower powers the amount of parallax is so small as to have no importance for practical, fast target acquisition."

Parallax in Rifle Scopes

You said:
"Was going to go down to the Cow Palace when I saw the show there but judging from the last time I went the prices there are WAY high since most folks know that SF folks are loaded."

I suggested the show so you could familiarize yourself with optics by looking through them and getting an idea of what you like. You can chose to purchase from anyone once you know what you like.

You might consider doing some scope web browsing at MidwayUSA. They have lots of the optics you are listing, and quite often have reviews from buyers. They are also wonderful to do business with.

You said:
"Looking a the pictures I have to ask is'nt it pretty big and would extend past the receiver portion of the upper rail?"

You've kinda lost me here. You're listing as options mega length scopes 14 inches long like the Leapers Accushot 3x9 .

For a short, tactical style, 4x, zero perceivable parallax, sharp pic from edge to edge, fine T reticle similar to an ACOG T reticle that will also illuminate and keep sharp as a tac, that you can also use on a .223 with no worries... AND is budget friendly.... here it is below. Last time PA had them in stock they were gone in a couple days with a limit of 2 per order. Look forward to an even better Gen2.

~tc~ · May 2, 2010

Ladyfox said:
Last thing I wished to do was just pick whatever scope was popular, slap it on, and not really give much thought about it.

Good for you! There are entirely too many sheeple out there that just buy whatever is "trendy" on the internet today.

Ladyfox said:
In my case the mission is three-fold:

a. Locate an all-weather day/night scope that will allow for quickly and accurately engaging targets across the effective range of the 22lr from 25 to 100 yards.

b. To be effective on the use of either a 5.56 or 7.62 NATO rifle across the same ranges (no, the scope would not be transplanted from rifle-to-rifle another one of same make would be purchased). Remember, I'm looking at this as a short to medium range scope and not something to be used beyond 100 yards since different factors come into play. And besides, there is'nt a range where I am that goes beyond 100 yards.

c. To retain what some like to call the "tacticool" look of an AR-style rifle without trying to turn it into some kind of 10/22 pretender with a long-tube scope.

Those were pretty much the same requirements I had. I thought for sure I NEEDED an illuminated reticle, and then talking to a LE instructor friend of mine, he pointed out that if it's that dark, you probably can't adequately ID the target. After "playing" with some, I came to understand and believe him.

As for "c" - I will say I wish this scope had more of an ACOG look, like the NC Star's.

Ladyfox said:
I did some digging for the scope you called out and was it this one?

Swift 1.5-4.5x32mm Premier Waterproof Matte Riflescope - 648M Rifle scope (SRP648M)
Swift 1.5-4.5x32mm Premier Waterproof Matte Riflescope - 648M Rifle scope FREE S&H SRP648M. Swift Riflescopes.

Yep. Mine is a factory refurb though, only $75.

Ladyfox said:
It sounds like you went down a similar road I did in that beyond 4x it was just silly due to the engagement ranges that would be practical for a 22lr. Beyond 100 yards you're entering the precision shooting ranges which is an entire different category.

Regarding the brightness/quality how does this affect how the optic works in a low-light situation? Now, granted, you're probably asking "***?! Why is that important?" and the answer is that I'm wishing to become better familar with how some factors affect optics so as to be better informed in my choice.

It's funny that you mention the Swift I was looking at that one but had discounted it due to the lack of illumination. But, it looks like I may have to give it a second look. I am a bit concerned however about how the optics will function since it's parallax is set at 100 yards which I had assumed would kill it's effective abilities at shorter distances or is this not really true?

Glass will naturally reflect some amount of light - that is light that is not making it to your eye to see the target. Coating the lenses improves the light transmission. Obviously, as the light gets dimmer, the higher % of the light you want coming through the scope! Imagine wearing sunglasses all the time - would be hard to see when the sun isn't really bright.

My scope is deadly accurate at 25 yds. IMHO, parallax becomes more of an issue with less eye relief. With this Swift, I seem to get a good image through the scope with A LOT of leeway for where my head is.

Ladyfox said:
Was going to go down to the Cow Palace when I saw the show there but judging from the last time I went the prices there are WAY high since most folks know that SF folks are loaded. But, rest assured once I narrow my choices down a bit I'm going to be hitting some local stores to move onto the next step. Besides, you know how girls like to window-shop.

IMHO, this is one of those purchases where being able to handle, look through, etc the product is a real advantage. Plus, prices at gun shows are negotiable. I am a firm believer in supporting the vendor that let you handle the product, etc - do your research and give them the opportunity to match the internet pricing.

rhino57 · May 2, 2010

I picked up a BSA 2.5X20mm Hunter scope from Optics Planet for $40.00 and mounted it on my 15-22, looks great only weighs 8oz. A low price scope that's worth looking at. Like everyone else I keep looking and read about what other folks are using.

KaiDoi · May 2, 2010

Upon getting my 15-22, last week, I sighted in the Magpul MBUS and have not used them since. I normally wear trifocals. I use single vision safety glasses at the range. I have a difficult time with the pop-up sights. Thus, I have been using the Primary Arms Gen 3 micro dot. The PA has been fantastic.

I am waiting for the new PA 4x compact scope. In the meantime, I ordered the PA 2 moa multi-recticle red dot sight with the PA magnifier. I love the red dot. Hopefully, this new set-up will be kinder on my aging eyes.

Ladyfox · May 2, 2010

ChattanoogaPhil said:
Here's a good explanation of parallax.

Particular to the piece: "Scopes of lower magnification are not usually supplied with parallax adjustment either, because at lower powers the amount of parallax is so small as to have no importance for practical, fast target acquisition."

Parallax in Rifle Scopes

Nice! Thanks for the link I'm going to have to give it a couple of read-overs since there looks to be some pretty good info here beyond what I've been able to find.

ChattanoogaPhil said:
You said:
"Was going to go down to the Cow Palace when I saw the show there but judging from the last time I went the prices there are WAY high since most folks know that SF folks are loaded."

I suggested the show so you could familiarize yourself with optics by looking through them and getting an idea of what you like. You can chose to purchase from anyone once you know what you like.

You might consider doing some scope web browsing at MidwayUSA. They have lots of the optics you are listing, and quite often have reviews from buyers. They are also wonderful to do business with.

Ahhh! My apologies I was mis-interpereting what you were saying. I've been looking at both MidwayUSA and OpticsPlanet and so far it's been a crapshoot. I'm thinking I'm probably going to have to check a couple of my favorite haunts and see what they have.

Sadly, the Bay Area really does not have much in the way of places that cater to people like us to say nothing of the fact that once most learn that you're in Kali, well, the reactions range from pity to disgust. -_-

ChattanoogaPhil said:
You said:
"Looking a the pictures I have to ask is'nt it pretty big and would extend past the receiver portion of the upper rail?"

You've kinda lost me here. You're listing as options mega length scopes 14 inches long like the Leapers Accushot 3x9 .

For a short, tactical style, 4x, zero perceivable parallax, sharp pic from edge to edge, fine T reticle similar to an ACOG T reticle that will also illuminate and keep sharp as a tac, that you can also use on a .223 with no worries... AND is budget friendly.... here it is below. Last time PA had them in stock they were gone in a couple days with a limit of 2 per order. Look forward to an even better Gen2.

D'OH!!! *smaks forehead*

To be honest I was paying attention more to the features rather than the dimensions; keying in on the "compact" and thinking they were small. For measurements sake what would be the ideal size to keep under to be able to keep it proportional to just the receiver?

*looks at the attached pic* I've seen that one but I guess PA is pulling the page whenever they run out. Saw some go up second-hand over on Calguns but they tend to go FAST!

From the sounds of it I'd probaby want to wait for the Gen 2 model anyway but, darn it, I wanna play dress-up with my 15-22 when I get it home!

~tc~ said:
Good for you! There are entirely too many sheeple out there that just buy whatever is "trendy" on the internet today.

That's the farthest from my mind. Granted, I like the shiny as much as the next person but I much prefer to understand what shiny stuff goes on my gear especially when it's throwing lead and copper downrange.

~tc~ said:
Those were pretty much the same requirements I had. I thought for sure I NEEDED an illuminated reticle, and then talking to a LE instructor friend of mine, he pointed out that if it's that dark, you probably can't adequately ID the target. After "playing" with some, I came to understand and believe him.

As for "c" - I will say I wish this scope had more of an ACOG look, like the NC Star's.

Yep. Mine is a factory refurb though, only $75.

Huh. That's actually a good point and one I think I glossed over since I was tending to equate the illuminated crosshairs as to how the ones on a red-dot work.

I'm thinking I may wind up having two sets of optics with the red-dot for targets under 50 and the scope for beyond that. Not that I'm adverse against that mind but the more I read the more I'm thinking that will most likely be the way to go rather than try and squeeze in both features into a single optic.

~tc~ said:
Glass will naturally reflect some amount of light - that is light that is not making it to your eye to see the target. Coating the lenses improves the light transmission. Obviously, as the light gets dimmer, the higher % of the light you want coming through the scope! Imagine wearing sunglasses all the time - would be hard to see when the sun isn't really bright.

My scope is deadly accurate at 25 yds. IMHO, parallax becomes more of an issue with less eye relief. With this Swift, I seem to get a good image through the scope with A LOT of leeway for where my head is.

Very interesting and that makes sense. I'm going to have to see if there is one of these Swift's locally to give it a look-over.

~tc~ said:
IMHO, this is one of those purchases where being able to handle, look through, etc the product is a real advantage. Plus, prices at gun shows are negotiable. I am a firm believer in supporting the vendor that let you handle the product, etc - do your research and give them the opportunity to match the internet pricing.

*nods* Good words to live by and I'll be keeping them in mind.

ChattanoogaPhil · May 2, 2010

" For measurements sake what would be the ideal size to keep under to be able to keep it proportional to just the receiver?"

I think the NcStar MarkIII series look good sized on the rifle. Lots of Forum members have them. They come in a variety of options ranging from 4x to 3-9x and greater with lasers and optional reflex sight add-ons / built-in. Some mixed reviews on the optional add-ons, but I think most are pleased with the optic.

And the more I look at Rhino57's BSA 2.5X the more I like it.

~tc~ · May 2, 2010

ChattanoogaPhil;135460112 They come in a variety of options ranging from 4x to 3-9x and greater with lasers and optional reflex sight add-ons / built-in. Some mixed reviews on the optional add-ons said:
They came out with a 1.25-4x this year too, and would have been what I bought, but the image seemed dimmer, and kinda like looking down a tunnel compared to the Swift.

Jitsu · Nov 13, 2010

Was curious on what you decided upon? I was kind of in the same quandry about a scope worth buying that would not break the bank wile affording some degree of quality and features. I have a variety of optics for close quarter engagements (50-75 yrd and under)i.e. NCstar and sightmark red dots that work great. Also have a 2x red and green dot sight that works well also (has detachable magnification unit). Wanted a scope for longer engagements but that could also be used for close quarter if needed. Decided on the Leapers AccuShot 1-4X28 30mm Long Eye Relief CQB Scope. Will use a quick realease see through mount so I can use my Magpul back up sights. BTW I was impressed by the research you did. Great job! Mine will serve double duty on my M&P 15 OR and my 15-22.

scootle · Nov 13, 2010

KaiDoi said:
I am waiting for the new PA 4x compact scope. In the meantime, I ordered the PA 2 moa multi-recticle red dot sight with the PA magnifier. I love the red dot. Hopefully, this new set-up will be kinder on my aging eyes.

i too have one of the PA M4 clones with the 2moa multi-reticle... it's pretty nice for the price and you can set up co-witness on irons very nicely if you desire.

i also have one of their 3x magnifiers on a QR mount, but i wanted to point out that the eye relief on the magnifier appears pretty short... it must be 2" or less, so this might be something to note.

i have to admit tho, with the M4 clone and magnifer bolted up, the setup looks pretty crazy.

good luck!

Musing and questions about optics...

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