Plus suicide is a mental health issue, not a criminal one or one that gun control will affect
10 year stopping power study
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Plus suicide is a mental health issue, not a criminal one or one that gun control will affect
Telecaster
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I’m saddened by the death of so many guns.
Bill Lear
Member
The results of the Ellifritz study mirror those se en in shooting victims who arrive in the ER.
The fact is, a .22LR will kill someone dead as a hammer at the same "rate" as a 9mm. The truth is that the .22LR is the "baseline" in terms of "what it takes to put a human down....and yet, the larger calibers do not proceed to being more effective in a linear manner.
It comes down to penetration factor. The .22LF has a PF slightly greater than the 9mm, and about 2X that of the .45 auto. Penetration is the key...the ability of a bullet to punch DEEP and put holes in and through key structures.
"Energy" per se has no practical bearing on so-called "stopping power." A manual stab to the chest with a 6" stiletto will likely cause lung collapse and rapid incapacitation - VERY LITTLE "energy" there!
Today we have innumerable videos on Youtube showing us how people react in shooting situations and to being shot. We have videos such as the Reason shooting, and the RFK shooting that validate the efficacy of the lowly .22LR, yet still the internet is mired in dogma.
bowzette
Member
This explains why the cost of guns has increased so much
Well, they might have to start using swords . . .
Clayguy
Member
Man Stopping Bullets
Many, many years when I was playing cop, an outlaw biker took 11 rounds from a 9mm (JHP's) after fatally shooting a fellow officer. He was still alive when he was strapped to the gurney for transport. He died enroute to hospital. Shortly thereafter I was given permission to carry a S&W revolver in .45 Colt (this was back in the days when most cops carried revolvers), me thinking that was the complete answer to stopping the bad guys. Point being, shot placement is important just about always. Some guys are just plain hard to kill quickly. If the bad guy happens to be on drugs it changes things. Variables that you cannot possibly account for will often dictate the outcome of a deadly encounter. I still believe, however, that a big, slower bullet is better than a fast, little bullet. Nothing scientific, it just seems to me to be intuitively correct. But, I shoot Sharps rifles, so maybe I'm just into big lead.
Many, many years when I was playing cop, an outlaw biker took 11 rounds from a 9mm (JHP's) after fatally shooting a fellow officer. He was still alive when he was strapped to the gurney for transport. He died enroute to hospital. Shortly thereafter I was given permission to carry a S&W revolver in .45 Colt (this was back in the days when most cops carried revolvers), me thinking that was the complete answer to stopping the bad guys. Point being, shot placement is important just about always. Some guys are just plain hard to kill quickly. If the bad guy happens to be on drugs it changes things. Variables that you cannot possibly account for will often dictate the outcome of a deadly encounter. I still believe, however, that a big, slower bullet is better than a fast, little bullet. Nothing scientific, it just seems to me to be intuitively correct. But, I shoot Sharps rifles, so maybe I'm just into big lead.
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7shooter
Member
Agree. I saw a fair number of hangings, intentional overdoses and drownings. Never saw a wrist slitting that was successful although I'm sure that is possible.
Fastbolt
Member
And the beat goes on ...
MsRuth
Member
2200 fps? Maybe for home defense from a .30 or .223 carbine. (Speer claims 1990 fps for 110 grain, and 3220 fps for 55 grain Gold Dots out of 18" and 22" barrels.) But not from a concealable pistol.
Longer barrel length = more propellant burned = more velocity. Using the same .357 125 grain GDs a 7.5 inch barrel SA revolver supposedly delivers 1307 fps and a 16.5" 1894 1987 fps.
BBI tested 3 loads in a .25 Jetfire 765 -- 800 fps
4 loads in a 32 Tomcat 774 -- 1000 fps
7 loads in a .380 LCP 796 -- 1054 fps
5 loads in a .38 Spl 642 847 -- 940 fps
10 loads in a 3" 9x19 933 -- 1389 fps
8 loads in a 3" .357 1191 -- 1313 fps
(4" 9x19 and .357s were constantly ca. 150 fps higher than a 3," so a 2" would be less by up to a commensurate amount.)
11 loads in a 4" .40 989 -- 1336 fps
10 loads in a 3.75" .45 auto 716 -- 1054 fps
(Those are the smallest .40 and .45s they tested.)
I carry a .357, GDSBs are supposed to deliver 990 fps from 2". One thing about a .45, it's always at least .451" in diameter. Some of the light bullets scoot, and those that travel at 750 fps weigh a lot.
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MsRuth
Member
Shhh, they will start banning tall-- meaning anything above ground-- buildings, bridges, scissors, kitchen knives, razor blades, lakes, rivers, ponds...
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MsRuth
Member
I gave a brief scan to the OP and the alleged "study". Back in the last century I spent years studying homicide rates and the most depressing pat of my study was discovering just how many "peer reviewed scientific studies" were deeply flawed to the point of uselessness.
Rather than beat the dead horse more, I'll just repeat a principle from the first day of inferential statistics class: "correlation is not causation". Come to think of it, that was also mentioned in Logic in a more seemly form: "the crowing rooster doesn't cause the sun to rise".
Rather than beat the dead horse more, I'll just repeat a principle from the first day of inferential statistics class: "correlation is not causation". Come to think of it, that was also mentioned in Logic in a more seemly form: "the crowing rooster doesn't cause the sun to rise".
MsRuth
Member
It isn't just firearm related studies. It's everywhere-- in my admittedly limited experience. Mom and dad said the schools I went to were "second-rate," but they were far better than the public schools around me today. Ones that rank in the top 10% of the state.
A publicly financed 13-year babysitting service is what they have to offer, not an education on how to reason or find unbiased information.
Colleges seem to be as bad, a 4 to 6 year course on the right words to say without any understanding whatsoever of those word's meanings or implications.
Sheese, I'm not "old" enough to be an "old fogey" but here I am.
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Buick
Member
It will definitely spin them around. Another aquaintence had just returned home from a long rainy day of rabbit hunting. He sleepwalked his teenaged son into the house and got him onto the couch. He had just wiped down his shotgun and was sitting in his kitchen with the lights off when the door was kicked in. A man took two steps into the house when my friend shot him with the .45 1911 still on his hip. It spun the man around but he was able to run out the door and escape. Later the police seemed unsure that the man had been hit....my friend pointed up and said, "that aint ketchup on the ceiling". His son slept through the shooting and only woke up when the police arrived. The perp survived, pulled 18 years, and was later killed in Patterson, NJ.
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you're wrong. All three of my kids graduated college -daughter is a a physical therapist helping old folks recover from strokes, oldest son a senior project manager building robotic surgical suites, youngest son runs a high tech global project team, all make 6 figures a year, and would never have the jobs without the degrees.
Education matters, at every level.
Autonomous
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Education matters, it's true.
But.
The buyer must beware. There are too many worthless classes and even majors being actively promoted by higher education.
One of my kids was not able to support herself very well with her 'save the world' Bachler's Degree. I asked her if she was finally going to listen to my counsel. She started to argue at first saying all these school counselors recommended so-and-so. When asked how that was working out for her, she had the brains to shut up and finally listen. I explained that to save others she had to save herself first.
Her Master's has actually made her employable.
But.
The buyer must beware. There are too many worthless classes and even majors being actively promoted by higher education.
One of my kids was not able to support herself very well with her 'save the world' Bachler's Degree. I asked her if she was finally going to listen to my counsel. She started to argue at first saying all these school counselors recommended so-and-so. When asked how that was working out for her, she had the brains to shut up and finally listen. I explained that to save others she had to save herself first.
Her Master's has actually made her employable.
“When I was a boy of fourteen, my father was so ignorant I could hardly stand to have the old man around. But when I got to be twenty-one, I was astonished at how much he had learned in seven years.” Mark Twain
smoothshooter
Member
I am convinced that caliber is the least important factor when it comes evaluating a handguns ability to stop an attack by humans.
Animals are a different matter.
Animals are a different matter.
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Please elaborate and explain your conclusion.
sigp220.45
US Veteran
My thoughts exactly. People know what just happened and don’t want it to happen some more. They also are self-aware enough to try to get to a hospital.
