147gr 9mm ?

[blujax01]

...

I can't help but wonder why so many people place their lives in the hands of a bullet they have never used let alone seen used on a human being. Ballistic gel tests are merely an abitrary standard ....

Well, since 99.9% of us have not been witness to a shooting death much less caused one, laboratory standards will have to do. Reliable comparisons to a standard can be made based on gathered data in a controlled setting. We rely on scientific method and it works.

Even if someone has solid first hand evidence, it gets argued. There is another thread where a coroner with 30 years experience espoused a certain caliber and bullet weight based on his actual findings in performing autopsies on hundreds of dead bodies yet was still getting lip from those who "know better."

 

[Engine 21]

They were the predecessor of the what the .357 SIG is today and they are real "channel changers".

I can't help but wonder why so many people place their lives in the hands of a bullet they have never used let alone seen used on a human being. Ballistic gel tests are merely an abitrary standard that was decided upon by the FBI after the Miami Shootout of '86 when in typical Gov't fashion they blamed the bullets and not the stupid agents who refused to wait for backup and went Cowboy on two rogue bank robbers armed with rifles and a history that showed no reluctance to use them. That is why they had their butts handed to them. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Boge;

I cannot disagree with any of this - spot on.

 

[Boge]

...There is another thread where a coroner with 30 years experience espoused a certain caliber and bullet weight based on his actual findings in performing autopsies on hundreds of dead bodies yet was still getting lip from those who "know better."

Wasn't that the fella that was totally discredited as a Walter Mitty?

Even so, a coroner/ME can tell you what EVENTUALLY killed someone & they can give an educated guess on how long they took to die, but most importantly they can only rarely tell you what that person did in the time period between being shot & expiration. In other words, it's all ex post facto. Sure, you may have pumped seven .45 HP's into some bad guy and he died 5 mins later. In the meantime he pumped fifteen 9mm into YOU! This is something the coroner/ME may very well not know nor show in his/her report. Therefore, one has to talk to people who were there & saw it or were a participant and even then things can get sketchy.

It's like lion hunting. You have to be right every time but the lion only has to be right once.

 

[amd6547]

The late Stephen Camp wrote a lot on the Browning HiPower and his favorite loads in 9mm.
Here is an interesting article on the 127gn +P+ Ranger:
Field Report
And another:
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/BHP and 147 gr Ammo.htm
Here is another on the 147's:
The Browning Hi Power and 147

I will stick with the 127's, which are in the Glock 26 in my belt right now.
In every 9mm I have shot this load, it has proven very accurate.

 

[CTPete]

There is a great thread over on the AR15 forum about modern ammo and which loads are most effective. I can't say it presents a terminal argument, but it is very well documented. Several calibers are tested in balistic gelatin. The Gold Dot 147 gr is what I have chosen to carry. The article is pinned at the top of the Ammo section of the AR15 forum.

 

[jdh]

I thought I was on the S&W forum but with all the glock fanboys I must have went to glock talk by mistake.

Hey fanboys go to Google or your favorite search engine. Type in glock kaboom and let us know how many hits you get. Perfection my .....

 

[WR Moore]

The .357 Sig round uses 9mm bullets pushed to velocities well above +P+ 9mm and no problems with bullet failure that I am aware of.

Sent from my Ally

Actually, if you look at the specs for the 357 Sig, you'll note that while the bullet diameter may well be 0.355 inches, the bullet weight is 125 grains. Since there are few, if any, bullets designed for the 9mm Parabellum of that weight, it follows that the 125 gr bullets were designed specifically for the increased velocities of that cartridge. In fact, the design parameters for that round were to come as close as possible to the performace of the 125 gr .357 Magnum round. Additionally, the bullet design for the Sig is maybe 20 years more modern, and benefits from development since then, than that of the slug used in the classic 9BPLE load.

Now, I have no doubt that there are some folks who load regular 9mm bullets, but how well they'll perform is going to be based upon what velocities their design envelope will tolerate. The major ammo makers specifically catalog a 125 gr bullet for the 357 Sig. I know that the 115 gr bullet used by Federal in the 9BP/C9BP doesn't do well at 9BPLE velocities in test media, tending to fragment excessively. Nor does it reportedly do well in extra large economy sized felons. It does seem to do quite well in other circumstances.

While the various test media don't really represent a humanoid body and are not predictive of "street results", they do allow comparisons of bullet design performance under identical conditions.

 

[vipermd]

bullet weight and effect on POI

My wife, Luscious, refers the 147 out of her M&P9C due mainly to the recoil characteristics. The recoil is more of a straight back "chug" than an upward "snap" if that makes any sense.

Other characteristics are that they shoot lower because it takes longer to exit the barrel than a 124 grain, and the cycle rate is slower for the same reason.

I do respect Archangel's well-informed opinion and use 124 in my 5906 as the Standard but I don't argue with Luscious (been married 33 years and intend to keep it that way!) as that's the most comfortable round for her based on her experience and preference. I always load up a thousand practice rounds in 147 using plated bullets to keep her POA/POI consistent.

NO- A 147 gr shoots higher than a 124 or a 115 out of the same gun; Simple physics- the 147 is moving slower and exits the barrel later in recoil than the 127/115gr. Her gun is not different, her POA/POI may be the same, but that is due to her sight alignment and the height of her sights. A similar example is a standard 40 SW from any company , most are zeroed with 180 gr, if you put 135 gr corbon in it it will hit about 10-12 low a 25 yds. I would keep her supplied with whatever works, I keep my wife supplied with 230 gr 45 FMJ for practice and ranger 230 gr +p for carry. Be Safe.

 

[Stu Honea]

NO- A 147 gr shoots higher than a 124 or a 115 out of the same gun; Simple physics- the 147 is moving slower and exits the barrel later in recoil than the 127/115gr. Her gun is not different, her POA/POI may be the same, but that is due to her sight alignment and the height of her sights. A similar example is a standard 40 SW from any company , most are zeroed with 180 gr, if you put 135 gr corbon in it it will hit about 10-12 low a 25 yds. I would keep her supplied with whatever works, I keep my wife supplied with 230 gr 45 FMJ for practice and ranger 230 gr +p for carry. Be Safe.

Exceptions to everything I guess.I use 147 in everything,but I have one G19 that actually shoots LOW with 147. Same sights on all three G19's. 124+P and 127+P+ is dead on in this gun ,so that's what it gets.

 

[amd6547]

"...I thought I was on the S&W forum but with all the glock fanboys I must have went to glock talk by mistake..."

".....Hey fanboys go to Google or your favorite search engine. Type in glock kaboom and let us know how many hits you get. Perfection my ....."

LOL, there is one in every crowd. Glock hater, that is.

 

[Boge]

...I know that the 115 gr bullet used by Federal in the 9BP/C9BP doesn't do well at 9BPLE velocities in test media, tending to fragment excessively. Nor does it reportedly do well in extra large economy sized felons...

It's the exact same bullet and I know of no other 9mm load (BPLE) that has such a stellar record for putting down bad guys right now, although I hear that the Speer 124 gr. +p is getting closer.

Here's how "bad" the "antiquated" BPLE fares in a modern FBI 4 layer denim/ calibrated ballistic gel test:


10% Ballistic Gelatin Tests for:
Federal 9mm 115gr. +p+ 9BPLE

Testing Platform:
Glock 19

Barrier:
4 Layers of Denim


TEST RESULTS:

Round # 1:
Penetration: 12.50"
Recovered Weight: 110.1 gr.
Expansion*: .680 cal.
Velocity: 1298 fps.
Notes: .680 at widest “leg,” .551 cal average diameter.

StoppingPower.net Forums - Federal 9mm 115gr. +p+ 9BPLE - 10/05/2004

 

[125JHP]

Actually,.... Since there are few, if any, bullets designed for the 9mm Parabellum of that weight, it follows that the 125 gr bullets were designed specifically for the increased velocities of that cartridge. In fact, the design parameters for that round were to come as close as possible to the performace of the 125 gr .357 Magnum round. Additionally, the bullet design for the Sig is maybe 20 years more modern, ...

So what if one were to load the 125 Gold Dot designed for a 357 Sig, into a 9mm case.... what velocity would be required to get reliable expansion ???

 

[Boge]

So what if one were to load the 125 Gold Dot designed for a 357 Sig, into a 9mm case.... what velocity would be required to get reliable expansion ???

125 gr. I don't know nor care, but for one gr. less there is this:

9mm Luger +P+ 124 Grain Gold Dot Jacket Hollow Point Box of 50


Yes, I have shot it and it's hot. Approx. 80 fps faster than a standard Speer 124 gr. +p in a G19. Extremely accurate as well. New Starline brass and real Gold Dot bullets.

 

[125JHP]

The reason I ask is that 124 GD are often sold out at the various places I buy components but they will have the 125gr version and I have this bright idea that 1 gr doesn't make much difference but on the other hand I know there must be a difference. When I compare the two, I immediately noticed the cavity in the 124gr is much deeper.

So, I still wonder if it might be doable but I wonder what minimum velocity is needed to get expansion in the 9mm comparable to the 124gr. I suppose I could try drilling the HP a little deeper

 

[jdh]

"...I thought I was on the S&W forum but with all the glock fanboys I must have went to glock talk by mistake..."

".....Hey fanboys go to Google or your favorite search engine. Type in glock kaboom and let us know how many hits you get. Perfection my ....."

LOL, there is one in every crowd. Glock hater, that is.

I don't hate glocks. I don't particularly like them, but I don't hate them. I own one, a 20, and that one only because S&W refuses to make an M&P10.

What I do dislike is when the fanboys come on another brand forum and spout their constant "yours is **** go buy a glock" BS. Do I go to glock talk and say glocks are **** just buy and M&P? NO.

 

[Ironhand]

I'm a big Beretta 92 fan and belong to a forum that caters to Beretta enthusiasts. A member there is a competitive shooter with the 92-series and has even been on Season 1 of Top Shot as an instructor on the 92 for the competitors. He is also a sheriff's deputy where he lives, and he gave a report of the time when he qualified with his weapon...

He said the instructors were rude and snotty towards him because he didn't carry a Glock like they did, making disparaging remarks about his choice of handgun. His shooting skills shut them up for a little while, but they continued with the "Get a Glock" mentality the entire time he was on the range.

I like Glocks even though I don't currently own one. The G21 and 17 were nice guns, though a bit clunky.

 

[Nevada Ed]

Youtube post by TNO9 with a glock 19 4" has done a lot of 9mm test and some data goes like this.........(4G) ..levi/gel.

Federal 115 +P+ 1236fps 13" penetration, bullet .578 dia
Speer 124 +P 1210fps 13" penetration, bullet .615 dia
Federal 147HST+P 1050fps 11" pen......... bullet .70 dia
Federal 147 HST std 1008fps 13" penetration Bullet .66 dia

They all look like winners to me.............
where the bullet ends up on the target per point of aim would be what I would look at if recoil was not an issue and your gun can shoot these loads.

Note:
the USA Armed forces replaced the 1911 in 1985 for the Beretta 92........so it can't be that bad and I like its looks, feel and balance. It and the Glock are proven war veterans that keep on ticking.......