1866 vs 1873 lever action rifle?

Hello86 said:
From about $15.84-$27.48, 50 rounds a box.

For example a box of 50 rounds:

- Magtech 38 Special 10,24 g/158 gr LRn: $15.84.

- Magtech 38A .38 SPL, LRN, $19.75.

- Geco 38 Special 10,2 g/158 gr JHP, $24.22.

- Fiocchi .38 Special 158gr SJSP: $27.48.

What do you think of those prices? Is it worth reloading the 38 special as well, do you think?
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Primers are running about $0.10 each here.

Powder is about $35.00 a pound

Bullets are running about $60.00 for 500.

Then add in the cost of the reloading equipment (several hundred dollars)

and the time you spend making the completed ammo. Then the $15.84 a box for the MagTech does not look to bad.
 
AJ said:
Primers are running about $0.10 each here.

Powder is about $35.00 a pound

Bullets are running about $60.00 for 500.

Then add in the cost of the reloading equipment (several hundred dollars)

and the time you spend making the completed ammo. Then the $15.84 a box for the MagTech does not look to bad.
Click to expand...

Only if you're looking short term.

If you look long term, and you cast bullets, you'll save A LOT over the course of the next 5, 10, 15, 20 years.

And you'll also not be beholden to the ammo companies, shortages, etc. etc.
 
Hello86 said:
Thank you. What equipment do you use to reload the 44-40?


I found some 44-40 ammuntion where I live.

A box of 50 rounds, Magtech 44-40A .44-40 WIN L-FLAT, $38.27.

A box of 50 rounds, PATRON MAGTECH .44-40 WIN COWBOY 225 GRS LFN, $40.66.

Much cheaper than $75-150 per box, but still not really cheap I guess. And the question is whether the price will not be raised soon.
Click to expand...

Equipment:
RCBS JR press (purchased used in 1973)
Ohaus 10-10 powder scale (purchased used in 1973)
Lachmiller powder measure (clearance sale 1974)
Redding case trimmer (clearance sale about 1980)
Dies (RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Hornady. About 25 sets on hand)
Manuals (Speer, Lyman, Sierra, Lee, half-dozen others)

Currently reloading for 22 rifle and handgun calibers including several obsolete 19th Century calibers. Whenever I have added a new caliber I always order a set of dies and a bullet mold.

I don't think any of my reloading stuff owes me a dime. I own 3 antique rifles for which factory ammo has not been available since WW2, but I'm still using them. I have a couple of modern rifles (within the past 50 years) that have never been fired with factory ammo. 2 sons and 9 grandchildren, none of whom understand what factory ammo is; when they run out they send their brass to Grampa's house for reloading.

I last purchased factory .38 Special ammo in 1982: I needed a fresh supply for my duty revolver. Competed several years in PPC matches, 3000-plus rounds per season all produced at home.

I cast bullets several times per year, usually 1500 to 3000 at a time (about 4 or 5 hours). I reload most handgun calibers in batches of 1000 rounds, most rifle calibers in batches of 100 or 200. Instead of watching silly TV shows I spend a few hours at the bench, working in stages of sizing, priming, case mouth prep, then drop powder and seat bullets.

For those calibers I shoot regularly my ammo stash seldom drops below 500-1000 rounds before I start producing more. Producing ammunition has become a part of the whole shooting hobby, and I enjoy it as much as my time on the range or in the woods.

The prices you mentioned for .44-40 ammo are lower than I've seen in years. I would buy it all, then sell any excess on GunBroker and double my money in a couple of weeks! Lots of people looking for .44-40, .32-20, .25-20, .300 Savage, .45 Colt, .30-40, and a dozen others that used to be commonly available but now found very seldom at any price. A commonly heard euphemism for ammo and components is "unobtainium". Old buddy of mine (now close to 90) has hunted with a .30 Remington for many years, couple of years ago needed some ammo which I found on-line at a shop in Florida, purchased 3 boxes (60 rounds) for $220 shipped, and my buddy was very happy to get it.

A better comparison: Spend $300 on a basic reloading set-up and .44-40 dies, find 100 rounds of brass at $1 each, total $400. Reload those cases 10 times and you have recovered your investment. With the cost of primers, powder, and bullets (figure 15 cents per round) another 2 boxes produced will put you at zero, after which you are shooting for $7.50 per box or so.

Shoot 200 rounds (4 boxes) per year for 10 years, your total cost will be $700 ($400 equipment, $300 components) compared to $1600 for factory ammo.

If you enjoy shooting 200 rounds per year is a very low target.

The more you enjoy shooting the more you will save over the long haul. Not to mention becoming free of the ammo shortages and crises every few years; you'll still be shooting while your friends are crying about ammo being unavailable.
 
smithra_66 said:
And you'll also not be beholden to the ammo companies, shortages, etc. etc.
Click to expand...

How about component shortages? I think primers will be a sticking point from now on......... Powder costs are up, but not greatly.......Not sure about the costs of bullets, but they also seem to be running about twice what they were.

I am lucky in that I cast for everything I shoot. Went into this mess with components to last me about 10 years.......
 
One of the advantages of being of a more seasoned vintage is that I encountered today's historical happenings as current events. I went through the primer disappearance during the Ciinton Administration. So when the supply and price of primers got back to normal any time I was finding a good deal on reloading components and ammunition I grabbed anything I could use and afford over the last 20+ years.
 
Golddollar said:
One of the advantages of being of a more seasoned vintage is that I encountered today's historical happenings as current events. I went through the primer disappearance during the Ciinton Administration. So when the supply and price of primers got back to normal any time I was finding a good deal on reloading components and ammunition I grabbed anything I could use and afford over the last 20+ years.
Click to expand...

I didn’t start reloading until the start of the 2000s; however, the Clintons certainly were part of my motivation. I had no idea that there had been a “primer shortage” in the 1990s, but I experienced the 2009-2011 drought and said to my self “never again”. When stores started selling primers again with a daily limit of 200 I didn’t even look at the price. I bought what I could. When larger quantities became widely available I bought more.
 
AJ said:
Primers are running about $0.10 each here.

Powder is about $35.00 a pound

Bullets are running about $60.00 for 500.

Then add in the cost of the reloading equipment (several hundred dollars)

and the time you spend making the completed ammo. Then the $15.84 a box for the MagTech does not look to bad.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the information AJ.

The biggest cost is probably the equipment that you reload with at the beginning. But isn't it the case that you save money on reloading in the long run?

Yes the time spending reloading, and some would argue that time is money. So you avoid that work when you buy factory ammunition. But many of us, when we think about it, often waste hours doing nothing meaningful, so why not use the time sometime to reload ammo? It also seems fun to reload, so why not?

I'm thinking, when I get started I'll start buying factory ammo, and see how much I'll shoot. If it becomes a lot, I think I should probably start learning to reload.
 
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AJ said:
How about component shortages? I think primers will be a sticking point from now on......... Powder costs are up, but not greatly.......Not sure about the costs of bullets, but they also seem to be running about twice what they were.

I am lucky in that I cast for everything I shoot. Went into this mess with components to last me about 10 years.......
Click to expand...

So you think there will be no difference (or little difference?) in price between factory ammo and reloaded, that it is not worth reloading?
 
LoboGunLeather said:
Equipment:
RCBS JR press (purchased used in 1973)
Ohaus 10-10 powder scale (purchased used in 1973)
Lachmiller powder measure (clearance sale 1974)
Redding case trimmer (clearance sale about 1980)
Dies (RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Hornady. About 25 sets on hand)
Manuals (Speer, Lyman, Sierra, Lee, half-dozen others)

Currently reloading for 22 rifle and handgun calibers including several obsolete 19th Century calibers. Whenever I have added a new caliber I always order a set of dies and a bullet mold.

I don't think any of my reloading stuff owes me a dime. I own 3 antique rifles for which factory ammo has not been available since WW2, but I'm still using them. I have a couple of modern rifles (within the past 50 years) that have never been fired with factory ammo. 2 sons and 9 grandchildren, none of whom understand what factory ammo is; when they run out they send their brass to Grampa's house for reloading.

I last purchased factory .38 Special ammo in 1982: I needed a fresh supply for my duty revolver. Competed several years in PPC matches, 3000-plus rounds per season all produced at home.

I cast bullets several times per year, usually 1500 to 3000 at a time (about 4 or 5 hours). I reload most handgun calibers in batches of 1000 rounds, most rifle calibers in batches of 100 or 200. Instead of watching silly TV shows I spend a few hours at the bench, working in stages of sizing, priming, case mouth prep, then drop powder and seat bullets.

For those calibers I shoot regularly my ammo stash seldom drops below 500-1000 rounds before I start producing more. Producing ammunition has become a part of the whole shooting hobby, and I enjoy it as much as my time on the range or in the woods.

The prices you mentioned for .44-40 ammo are lower than I've seen in years. I would buy it all, then sell any excess on GunBroker and double my money in a couple of weeks! Lots of people looking for .44-40, .32-20, .25-20, .300 Savage, .45 Colt, .30-40, and a dozen others that used to be commonly available but now found very seldom at any price. A commonly heard euphemism for ammo and components is "unobtainium". Old buddy of mine (now close to 90) has hunted with a .30 Remington for many years, couple of years ago needed some ammo which I found on-line at a shop in Florida, purchased 3 boxes (60 rounds) for $220 shipped, and my buddy was very happy to get it.

A better comparison: Spend $300 on a basic reloading set-up and .44-40 dies, find 100 rounds of brass at $1 each, total $400. Reload those cases 10 times and you have recovered your investment. With the cost of primers, powder, and bullets (figure 15 cents per round) another 2 boxes produced will put you at zero, after which you are shooting for $7.50 per box or so.

Shoot 200 rounds (4 boxes) per year for 10 years, your total cost will be $700 ($400 equipment, $300 components) compared to $1600 for factory ammo.

If you enjoy shooting 200 rounds per year is a very low target.

The more you enjoy shooting the more you will save over the long haul. Not to mention becoming free of the ammo shortages and crises every few years; you'll still be shooting while your friends are crying about ammo being unavailable.
Click to expand...


Thank you very much for that information LoboGunLeather.

Seems like it's really worth reloading.

I also think it's cool that you make ammo for your sons and grandsons, I guess they enjoy it a lot. It must be fun, shooting together with your sons and grandsons, strengthening the community and fellowship within the family I can imagine.
 
Something else I wonder about. Is there a difference in difficulty to load different types of ammo used for 1866/1873? 44-40 some say is more difficult to load as I understood. How about 38 special, 357 magnum, and 45 long colt, you say? Are they just as easy to load, or are there differences?

And I'm also thinking that if I'm only going to buy factory ammo, 38 special is undoubtedly the cheapest, plus it has other advantages compared to say 357 magnum, less noise and less muzzle flash and recoil (although the recoil is small even with 357 in a 1866/1873), good for the event of home defense in the middle of the night for example.

But if the cost of 45 long colt when reloading, becomes much cheaper in the long run than buying 38 special factory ammo, then maybe 45 long colt, or 44-40 etc can be preferred over 38 special in which case?

But if I buy an 1866 (or 1873) in 45 colt or 44-40, and it turns out that reloading is very difficult, and that I am not good at it, then I have bought an expensive rifle, with only very expensive factory ammunition as the only option, it would not be successful either. Certainly, maybe I can then sell the rifle, and maybe buy a 38 special instead.

Hmm, maybe I'm overanalyzing too much, which I tend to do with a lot of things :) But on the other hand, I want to have thought it through as much as possible, so I don't buy an expensive rifle, only to regret it later.

Something I also wonder about bringing into consideration, regarding the 357 magnum and 45 long colt, is that they were not intended to be fired through either 1866 or 1873. I have seen some write that even though Uberti and others have approved them to be fired from their rifles, so in the long run the rifles will probably wear out and not last very long if you shoot that type of ammo often. So for plinking a lot, maybe you should only use 38 special or 44-40, if you wanted the rifle to last a long time?
 
Hello86 said:
Something else I wonder about. Is there a difference in difficulty to load different types of ammo used for 1866/1873? 44-40 some say is more difficult to load as I understood. How about 38 special, 357 magnum, and 45 long colt, you say? Are they just as easy to load, or are there differences?

And I'm also thinking that if I'm only going to buy factory ammo, 38 special is undoubtedly the cheapest, plus it has other advantages compared to say 357 magnum, less noise and less muzzle flash and recoil (although the recoil is small even with 357 in a 1866/1873), good for the event of home defense in the middle of the night for example.

But if the cost of 45 long colt when reloading, becomes much cheaper in the long run than buying 38 special factory ammo, then maybe 45 long colt, or 44-40 etc can be preferred over 38 special in which case?

But if I buy an 1866 (or 1873) in 45 colt or 44-40, and it turns out that reloading is very difficult, and that I am not good at it, then I have bought an expensive rifle, with only very expensive factory ammunition as the only option, it would not be successful either. Certainly, maybe I can then sell the rifle, and maybe buy a 38 special instead.

Hmm, maybe I'm overanalyzing too much, which I tend to do with a lot of things :) But on the other hand, I want to have thought it through as much as possible, so I don't buy an expensive rifle, only to regret it later.

Something I also wonder about bringing into consideration, regarding the 357 magnum and 45 long colt, is that they were not intended to be fired through either 1866 or 1873. I have seen some write that even though Uberti and others have approved them to be fired from their rifles, so in the long run the rifles will probably wear out and not last very long if you shoot that type of ammo often. So for plinking a lot, maybe you should only use 38 special or 44-40, if you wanted the rifle to last a long time?
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.44-40 is a bottleneck cartridge while .45 Colt, .38 Spl, and many others are straight-wall designs. The major difference this makes for the reloader is that .44-40 dies will be hardened tool steel, no tungsten carbide insert, and each case will require lubrication prior to sizing, and removal of that lubricant after sizing.

Interesting note: .44-40 is a centerfire cartridge dimensionally very close to the older .44 Henry (rimfire). The case head and rim dimensions of the .44-40 are so close to those of .45 Colt that .45 Colt cases can be converted for use in .44-40 simply by running through the .44-40 sizer die to reform the case walls. NOT IDEAL, BUT CAN BE DONE IF THAT IS THE ONLY PRACTICAL ALTERNATIVE.

Straight-wall cases (like .38 Spl, .45 Colt, .44 Spl) are much faster to deal with just because the carbide sizer generally eliminates the lubrication steps.

Many semi-auto pistol cartridges use a tapered case wall. These can usually be resized in a carbide die and function correctly.

The comments mentioned regarding the accelerated wear and tear on a firearm when using high-pressure ammo (.357, etc) have, in my opinion, more to do with the designs of the 1866 and 1873 repro rifles you are considering. The lock-up mechanisms of those early rifles were intended for the lower pressure BP loads of the era, and the metallurgy of the bolts, linkage, locking lugs, and other parts is not comparable to more modern designs (even if made with more modern alloys).

Very few civilian shooters ever shoot enough to worry about wearing out a rifle within one lifetime (possible exceptions would be competitive shooters burning up thousands of rounds annually for practice and matches).

A safe and sane approach to these reproductions of early designs seems to dictate a gentle approach to ammunition selection.

Not mentioned otherwise, but since the OP appears to be new to all of this: tubular magazine rifles require ammunition with blunt bullet points for safety. The reason is that a more pointed bullet can detonate the cartridge ahead of it in the magazine under recoil or if the rifle is dropped. Best choice for safety is a flat-point bullet with large frontal area.

Yes, you are overanalyzing a little bit. But you are also asking good questions and (hopefully) gaining the knowledge to make intelligent choices.
 
Any straight wall hand gun cartridge is easy to reload. They rarely require trimming and can use the carbide resizing die which eliminates the use of case lube.

Reloading you own lets you customize your loads which is an advantage in that you can make reduced loads for older guns and weaker actions.

I load for many calibers and cartridges, including the 32-20 WCF and 38-40 WCF. The latter is just a 44-40 necked down to the smaller caliber (actually .401" dia. Not a true 38 caliber). Both of these old WCF cases, like the 44-40, are thin in the case mouth and easy to damage while reloading. Doesn't mean they aren't re-loadable it just means that some will be damaged and destroyed while while doing so. I've been reloading for over 50 years and I still lose a case or two of the WCFs at most reloading sessions.:rolleyes:

The 44-40 has a slight bottle neck and will need the case lube step when resizing. I don't believe a carbide resizing die is available for it, though I can stand to be corrected.

The 38 Special and 357 mag are very easy to reload. They even use the same dies. Brass is about as cheap as it gets, even new. the 45 Colt is equally easy to reload, but brass is more expensive, figure double in price, and not as easy to find. 44-40 is around, but not at all easy to find new or old. It will also be the most expensive. And you need to be wary of older 44-40 brass as they may unsuitable for reloading or need trimmed and/or annealed before use.

Bullets for any of the three are plentiful.

You shouldn't have any issues with a modern made model 66 or 73, especially the ones made these days. You don't seem to be the type that would abuse them through neglect or overloading. As previously mentioned, if you do want something to "power up" I recommend a model 92 action. They are actually stronger that the model 94s. I have a Rossi 92 in 38/357Mag and it is a delight to shoot. They are available in 44 Mag and 45 Colt, stainless or blue, round or octagon barrel, and are the least expensive option. Usually run around $700-$800 new.

Helped my neighbor get onto reloading last year and he is now into it as deep as I. Much of his equipment, like mine, was bought used off Ebay or at gun shows and flea markets.

If you would like, I have a copy of Lyman's reloading guide that you can have. Just PM me your mailing address and I'll send it out to you.

John
 
Thank you LoboGunLeather and John. Thanks so much for the offer o Lyman's reloading guide John, I will send you PM.


So the 44-40 is harder to load, and harder to get hold of brass, etc. 45 colt is easier to load, but also harder to get hold of brass and more expensive.

38 special and 357 magnum are easy to load, cheaper and easier to get hold of brass etc.

So here too 38 special/357 magnum seems to be the best choice, which would then point towards either 1866 in 38 special, or 1873 in 357 magnum/38 special. Have to weigh it against the historically correct 40-40, so probably the advantages of 38 special and 357 magnum outweigh that I guess.

Now I have to apologize at the risk if someone has already answered this, but I'm tired in the head and I want to remember that I read somewhere with opposing opinions for this.

If you then have to choose between 38 special in 1866, or 357/38 for 1873. Some believe that with the right type of ammunition (correct length, etc.) you can shoot 38 special just as well in 1866 as in 1873, while some believe that because 1873 in 357 magnum, is primarily made for the 357 magnum and not the 38 special, so there is a risk that it won't feed the 38 special as well which could cause problems, unlike a rifle (1866) that is only made to shoot the 38 special, which are then more reliable. Is this correct or should it not be a problem to shoot 38 special in the 1873 you think?


Another question that came up, I read somewhere, where people were comparing the 357 magnum to the 45 long colt and others. (Now I understand that the 357 magnum, 45 colt, 44-40 and 38 special all work well for home defense, but still.)

They said that the 357 magnum with its high velocity goes straight through the body and leaves a bullet hole, so that whoever is hit bleeds to death. Whereas the 45 colt with its lower velocity releases all its energy on the hit target, leaving a big hole like a fist on the body and doing more direct damage to the body, while less risk of overpenetration than the 357 magnum. The 45 long colt is supposed to have been made for close combat against indians, so it would be powerful and do brutal damage at close range, while the 357 magnum does more damage at longer range than the 45 long colt. Is it true? If so, could that be an advantage to the 45 colt, compared to the 357 magnum?
 
A modern lever action rifle chambered in 357 Magnum will shoot 38 Specials just fine. The same is not true for a rifle chambered in 38 Special. There's one big advantage as far as versatility is concerned.

Any of the calibers mentioned are sufficient for home defense. Especially in rifles.

Reloading 44-40 is, as previously opined, more expen$ive and, quite often, more frustrating for even experienced reloaders than the others.:rolleyes:

Unless used for hunting BIG (vs. medium size) game 38 Special/357 Magnum ammo is usually sufficient: the 44 & 45 calibers can be loaded for Moose, Elk, dangerous Bears, etc.:eek:

The chances one would wear out a modern rifle (with the notable exception of those in competition) are closer to none than slim.

Historical correctness is a concept that means very little at the range or in the field, IMHO. Right up there with political co-Rect(um)-ness...?

Reloading for one caliber can be relatively inexpensive. Once one gets into reloading, this can, unfortunately change as additional calibers are added.

Cheers!

P.S. When you purchase factory ammo and shoot it you have brass to reload right there. I have never purchased any 44 Special or 44 Magnum factory ammunition, and only one box of 357 SIG and two of 7mm Mauser and reload them all. Just found some 35 Remington brass (on this forum) for a friend that had not been able to find any ammo for about 10 years. He's now set for life.
 
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STORMINORMAN said:
A modern lever action rifle chambered in 357 Magnum will shoot 38 Specials just fine. The same is not true for a rifle chambered in 38 Special. There's one big advantage as far as versatility is concerned.

Any of the calibers mentioned are sufficient for home defense. Especially in rifles.

Reloading 44-40 is, as previously opined, more expen$ive and, quite often, more frustrating for even experienced reloaders than the others.:rolleyes:

Unless used for hunting BIG (vs. medium size) game 38 Special/357 Magnum ammo is usually sufficient: the 44 & 45 calibers can be loaded for Moose, Elk, dangerous Bears, etc.:eek:

The chances one would wear out a modern rifle (with the notable exception of those in competition) are closer to none than slim.

Historical correctness is a concept that means very little at the range or in the field, IMHO. Right up there with political co-Rect(um)-ness...?

Reloading for one caliber can be relatively inexpensive. Once one gets into reloading, this can, unfortunately change as additional calibers are added.

Cheers!

P.S. When you purchase factory ammo and shoot it you have brass to reload right there. I have never purchased any 44 Special or 44 Magnum factory ammunition, and only one box of 357 SIG and two of 7mm Mauser and reload them all. Just found some 35 Remington brass (on this forum) for a friend that had not been able to find any ammo for about 10 years. He's now set for life.
Click to expand...


Thank you STORMINORMAN. Good points.

Is your friend set for life for some 35 Remington brass, for reloading? I thought it was so that you can only reload used brass a number of times and max around 10 times, because they don't last forever? But you mean that you can buy say a box of 100 factory-made brass, then you can reload these a lot of times, and they last a lifetime and one does not need to buy new brass, cust keep using the same over and over again for a lifetime? Or maybe I'm misunderstanding now?

Something else. I have, after reading many people mention this, used the argument that the 38 special has that advantage over the 357 magnum, that it doesn't have anywhere near such a blinding and disruptive muzzle flash, but this doesn't seem to be true? I found this: [ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSReN4R9fX4"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSReN4R9fX4[/ame]

So I guess that might not be true?

Is it the same for 45 long colt and 44-40 or do they have an advantage over 38 special and 357 magnum when it comes to muzzle flash?
 
Lots of good info here. Make you're best choice, give it a try, have some fun. Go any direction you want from there.
 
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