1866 vs 1873 lever action rifle?

[LoboGunLeather]

Interesting reading here. Lots of different opinions.

My first .38 Special was a Colt Detective Special 2" in 1967. It never occurred to me that this would be inadequate for personal defense.

In the Army, two tours in Vietnam, most of our helicopter flight crews carried 4" S&W .38 Special revolvers as their primary personal defense weapons.

Joined the cops in 1972. Carried both .38 Special and .357 magnum revolvers for many years. I actually swore off .357 for use in the city after seeing the results of a few shootings. Stuck with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP and never considered myself to be under-gunned.

Had an old Winchester 1892 carbine rebored and chambered for .357 magnum for a couple decades. Carried it loaded with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP, found it to be very effective out to 100 yards.

Past several years have included multiple surgeries (wrist, elbow, shoulder) leaving me with limited hand-arm strength and reduced recoil tolerance. Reached into the gun safe, pulled out a 40-odd year old 2" S&W Model 64, loaded it up with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP, and now carry that routinely.

The OP likes the 1866 Yellow Boy. With .38 Special standard-pressure ammo loaded with 150-160 lead SWC or RN-FP that should be more than adequate for all of his intended uses (including home defense). Selection of ammo should be dictated by what works best in that rifle (feeding, accuracy, reliability). Pleasant to shoot with plenty of power for anything short of large game animals.

My $0.02 worth.

 

[AJ]

Interesting reading here. Lots of different opinions.

My first .38 Special was a Colt Detective Special 2" in 1967. It never occurred to me that this would be inadequate for personal defense.

In the Army, two tours in Vietnam, most of our helicopter flight crews carried 4" S&W .38 Special revolvers as their primary personal defense weapons.

Joined the cops in 1972. Carried both .38 Special and .357 magnum revolvers for many years. I actually swore off .357 for use in the city after seeing the results of a few shootings. Stuck with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP and never considered myself to be under-gunned.

Had an old Winchester 1892 carbine rebored and chambered for .357 magnum for a couple decades. Carried it loaded with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP, found it to be very effective out to 100 yards.

Past several years have included multiple surgeries (wrist, elbow, shoulder) leaving me with limited hand-arm strength and reduced recoil tolerance. Reached into the gun safe, pulled out a 40-odd year old 2" S&W Model 64, loaded it up with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP, and now carry that routinely.

The OP likes the 1866 Yellow Boy. With .38 Special standard-pressure ammo loaded with 150-160 lead SWC or RN-FP that should be more than adequate for all of his intended uses (including home defense). Selection of ammo should be dictated by what works best in that rifle (feeding, accuracy, reliability). Pleasant to shoot with plenty of power for anything short of large game animals.

My $0.02 worth.

The .38 Special will get the job done with good bullet placement whether on the target range or for home defense. That is unless you get into a situation where a Ma Duce would be handy!

 

[ISCS Yoda]

Just reread an article by John Taffin in the Jan 2020 GUNS Magazine He called the Rossi M92 the "Perfect Packing Rifle. Of course he had the action slicked up by a custom gunsmith with the trigger pull down to 4 pounds and new adjustable sights put on it.

I have had two of those, a basic Rossi M92 in .44-40, probably a 16" barrel (sold it awhile ago), and the other a fancier Navy Arms/Rossi, nicer wood, color casing, octagon barrel, 20", I think (haven't used in in a long time), in .45 Colt. I stuck with the .45 Colt version in my cowboy action shooting days because ammunition was more easily obtained. The 16 inch barrel would certainly be more practical for "packing" but the longer barrel was far more accurate for cowboy action shooting, especially with a peep sight attached instead of the original buckhorn sights. I had original Ruger Vaqueros in both calibers but a friend really wanted guns in .44-40 so they went to him.

Anyway, my overall points are (a) .44-40 ammunition is very tough to find, whereas .45/c is far easier to obtain, (b) none of the lever rifles of the Old West came in .45 Colt (long story for another time) so (c) if you are trying to be any kind of a purist (which I was not) you want to avoid .45/c even though I like it better, therefore (d) .38 Special more closely resembles .38-40, a popular caliber of the 19th century.

And, finally, the movie is called

Winchester '73

, and is quite good. Filmed in 1950 in black & white.

 

[Hello86]

If you choose to reload the .44-40 has more potential pitfalls than 38 Special/357 Magnum...

Cheers!

Thanks for the information.

What kind of pitfalls?

 

[Hello86]

Interesting reading here. Lots of different opinions.

My first .38 Special was a Colt Detective Special 2" in 1967. It never occurred to me that this would be inadequate for personal defense.

In the Army, two tours in Vietnam, most of our helicopter flight crews carried 4" S&W .38 Special revolvers as their primary personal defense weapons.

Joined the cops in 1972. Carried both .38 Special and .357 magnum revolvers for many years. I actually swore off .357 for use in the city after seeing the results of a few shootings. Stuck with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP and never considered myself to be under-gunned.

Had an old Winchester 1892 carbine rebored and chambered for .357 magnum for a couple decades. Carried it loaded with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP, found it to be very effective out to 100 yards.

Past several years have included multiple surgeries (wrist, elbow, shoulder) leaving me with limited hand-arm strength and reduced recoil tolerance. Reached into the gun safe, pulled out a 40-odd year old 2" S&W Model 64, loaded it up with .38 Special +P 158SWC-HP, and now carry that routinely.

The OP likes the 1866 Yellow Boy. With .38 Special standard-pressure ammo loaded with 150-160 lead SWC or RN-FP that should be more than adequate for all of his intended uses (including home defense). Selection of ammo should be dictated by what works best in that rifle (feeding, accuracy, reliability). Pleasant to shoot with plenty of power for anything short of large game animals.

My $0.02 worth.

Thanks for the interesting story and information. Yes exactly, and 38 special worked then, so it should work just as well today. It will probably be an 1866 in 38 special for me. Thanks for the inspiration.

 

[smithra_66]

I have had two of those, a basic Rossi M92 in .44-40, probably a 16" barrel (sold it awhile ago), and the other a fancier Navy Arms/Rossi, nicer wood, color casing, octagon barrel, 20", I think (haven't used in in a long time), in .45 Colt. I stuck with the .45 Colt version in my cowboy action shooting days because ammunition was more easily obtained. The 16 inch barrel would certainly be more practical for "packing" but the longer barrel was far more accurate for cowboy action shooting, especially with a peep sight attached instead of the original buckhorn sights. I had original Ruger Vaqueros in both calibers but a friend really wanted guns in .44-40 so they went to him.

Anyway, my overall points are (a) .44-40 ammunition is very tough to find, whereas .45/c is far easier to obtain, (b) none of the lever rifles of the Old West came in .45 Colt (long story for another time) so (c) if you are trying to be any kind of a purist (which I was not) you want to avoid .45/c even though I like it better, therefore (d) .38 Special more closely resembles .38-40, a popular caliber of the 19th century.

And, finally, the movie is called , and is quite good. Filmed in 1950 in black & white.

Believe it or not, the 38/40 uses a 40 cal bullet!

I agree if you don't reload then the 45 Colt is much more common over the counter, but if you do, there is no difference between them. Brass is plentiful for 44/40 because of the advent of Cowboy Action and bullets, whether you buy a mold or factory, are the same diameter as things like the 44 Magnum. So no problems there either.

 

[growr]

The pitfalls of reloading the 44-40 or 44 WCF are usually in the issues with the very thin neck which makes it great for shooting blackpowder.

This thin neck is very easily crushed if your dies are not adjusted perfectly.

When I am reloading the 44-40 for my SASS shooting, I need to slow down on my Dillon 550 and make sure that every casing if going straight into the die and not have to much crimp which will crush the neck like a piece of wadded up paper.

Randy

 

[Hello86]

The pitfalls of reloading the 44-40 or 44 WCF are usually in the issues with the very thin neck which makes it great for shooting blackpowder.

This thin neck is very easily crushed if your dies are not adjusted perfectly.

When I am reloading the 44-40 for my SASS shooting, I need to slow down on my Dillon 550 and make sure that every casing if going straight into the die and not have to much crimp which will crush the neck like a piece of wadded up paper.

Randy

Thanks for that information.

Would you advise people not to buy an 1873 (or an 1866) in 40-40/44 WCF because of reloading issues?

Come to think of it, it would be cool to also have an 1873 in 40-40 (44 WCF), because that's the only thing that is historically correct, the 1873 (not the 1866) with the real ammo, right, real cowboy ammo that was actually used in the cowboy days?

How would you say it compares to the 38 special, 45 colt, and 357 magnum when it comes to home defense? Guess it depends, because if one reloads, one can do different kinds of reloads, mild to powerful, right?

 

[LoboGunLeather]

.44-40 is a handloader's cartridge, as well as a lesson in handloading all by itself. Introduced about 1873 as a black powder cartridge, adapted to the Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers as the .44 WCF, then picked up by Marlin and other makers as the .44-40. Millions of rifles and handguns produced world-wide, and carried forward into the current era of smokeless powder loads.

-Very limited availability of commercial ammunition, even in the best of times, and prices are high
-Large variations in bore & groove diameters that require careful selection of loads to provide safe and accurate results
-Cases are known to have extremely thin walls and case mouths, requiring care in loading techniques and components to produce acceptable results without damage to the cases.

I regularly shoot .44-40 in a Colt Single Action Army revolver made in 1914 and a Marlin 1894 rifle made in 1905. The Colt requires bullets no larger than .427", but the Marlin has bore/groove that dictate .430". I use .428" in both and rely on the Lyman M-die case mouth expander die to prep cases for bullet seating, very moderate loads (probably little more effective than .38 Special in power, although bullets a bit heavier).

Are you ready for a graduate course in reloading? Are you prepared to scavange the universe for brass, and pay top dollar for everything? If so, welcome to the world of .44-40, lots of fun for those with the time and means to enjoy.

Otherwise, stick with the .38 Special in the Yellow Boy and have lots of fun without all the headaches.

 

[Hello86]

.44-40 is a handloader's cartridge, as well as a lesson in handloading all by itself. Introduced about 1873 as a black powder cartridge, adapted to the Winchester rifles and Colt revolvers as the .44 WCF, then picked up by Marlin and other makers as the .44-40. Millions of rifles and handguns produced world-wide, and carried forward into the current era of smokeless powder loads.

-Very limited availability of commercial ammunition, even in the best of times, and prices are high
-Large variations in bore & groove diameters that require careful selection of loads to provide safe and accurate results
-Cases are known to have extremely thin walls and case mouths, requiring care in loading techniques and components to produce acceptable results without damage to the cases.

I regularly shoot .44-40 in a Colt Single Action Army revolver made in 1914 and a Marlin 1894 rifle made in 1905. The Colt requires bullets no larger than .427", but the Marlin has bore/groove that dictate .430". I use .428" in both and rely on the Lyman M-die case mouth expander die to prep cases for bullet seating, very moderate loads (probably little more effective than .38 Special in power, although bullets a bit heavier).

Are you ready for a graduate course in reloading? Are you prepared to scavange the universe for brass, and pay top dollar for everything? If so, welcome to the world of .44-40, lots of fun for those with the time and means to enjoy.

Otherwise, stick with the .38 Special in the Yellow Boy and have lots of fun without all the headaches.

Thank you LoboGunLeather.

One save money by loading yourself I have read, but do you think you save more money by loading 40-40 yourself, compared to buying regular preloaded 38 special ammo? Or is 40-40 more expensive anyway?


And what do you think smithra_66? You did recommend it for shooting blackpower: http://smith-wessonforum.com/141687166-post36.html

So I would also like to hear your opinion as well.

 

[smithra_66]

Mehhhhhhh. The 44/40's "loading issues" are greatly exaggerated in my opinion. I've never really had any problems with it vs. anything else.

Yes, don't crush your brass on the dies. That goes with pretty much anything.

The thinness of the walls of the 44/40 (and the other WCF cartridges) serve a great purpose: They allow the case to seal the chamber when firing black powder.

It keeps the chamber nice and tidy.

Regarding your question on cost: If you cast your own bullets (and probably even if you don't), you will DEFINITELY save money reloading 44/40 cartridges over buying factory 38s. ANY factory handgun ammunition today is outrageously expensive, except for maybe something super common like 9mm Luger.

I can't imagine anyone that shoots a lot not reloading, so if you have reloading equipment the "availability" issue goes away. They are all available and all relatively cheap if you roll them off of your reloading press.

You are correct that the 1873 debuted with the 44/40 cartridge. It was Winchester's first centerfire (and maybe the first caliber period that was centerfire). The 1866 fired 44 rimfire.

ALL of these calibers will be PLENTY for home defense. put that out of your worry list. 13 rounds in a lever gun of 44/40, 45 Colt, or 38 Special/357 Mag will take care of ANYTHING you may need against 2 legged foes.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Thank you LoboGunLeather.

One save money by loading yourself I have read, but do you think you save more money by loading 40-40 yourself, compared to buying regular preloaded 38 special ammo? Or is 40-40 more expensive anyway?


And what do you think smithra_66? You did recommend it for shooting blackpower: http://smith-wessonforum.com/141687166-post36.html

So I would also like to hear your opinion as well.

I started reloading in 1972, started casting bullets in 1973. Using salvaged wheel weights and scrap lead to cast bullets, I was making most handgun calibers for less than 2 cents per round in those days. Now, using pre-panic supplies (primers, powder) I figure about 6 cents per round. If buying components at today's prices, probably about 12-15 cents per round. If purchasing ready-made bullets, add 10-20 cents per round.

There is relatively little difference in cost of reloading most of the handgun calibers (primers, powders, bullets). Cartridge case availability and cost per round will vary considerably, but with modest pressure loads cartridge cases last indefinitely (I have .38 Spl, .45ACP and other brass that has been loaded 50-plus times).

Factory .38 Special is becoming available again. Practice ammo about $20 per box. Premium ammo about $40-50 per box.

Factory .44-40 will be hard to find anywhere, and when found it will be $75-150 per box.

So, yes, you can save a lot of money by reloading (~10-30 cents per round vs. ~40 cents to $3 per round, or ~$5-$15 per box vs. ~$20 to $150 per box factory ammo). Well worth the investment of a couple hundred bucks for equipment, plus about $50 per caliber for dies, etc, and these things pay for themselves in the first 5 or 6 uses. Lots of YouTube tutorials, lots of good internet websites, lots of good instructional manuals.

The way it actually works for most of us is that we keep the budget about the same but end up shooting a lot more for the same dollars.

I have very little experience in black powder reloading of cartridge ammo. Again, lots of info and data available on-line or in books. No reason not to, if it appeals to you. If nothing else, you will learn a lot about firearms cleaning and maintenance! BP is smelly dirty stuff! NOTE: Keep black powder away from your good powder measure and scale, contamination is a serious risk.

Hope this helps.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

Here's my suggestion... buy a '66 in 38 Special. Enjoy shooting it while you learn to reload. Then get a '73 in 44-40 and go from there. You will appreciate the good qualities of both and learn something in the process.

John

 

[AJ]

Here's my suggestion... buy a '66 in 38 Special. Enjoy shooting it while you learn to reload. Then get a '73 in 44-40 and go from there. You will appreciate the good qualities of both and learn something in the process.

John

Great idea if you want to fund it for him.......

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

Just trying to be a helpful enabler. Doesn't have to happen over night. We all have gone down that path at some point.

John

 

[Hello86]

Mehhhhhhh. The 44/40's "loading issues" are greatly exaggerated in my opinion. I've never really had any problems with it vs. anything else.

Yes, don't crush your brass on the dies. That goes with pretty much anything.

The thinness of the walls of the 44/40 (and the other WCF cartridges) serve a great purpose: They allow the case to seal the chamber when firing black powder.

It keeps the chamber nice and tidy.

Regarding your question on cost: If you cast your own bullets (and probably even if you don't), you will DEFINITELY save money reloading 44/40 cartridges over buying factory 38s. ANY factory handgun ammunition today is outrageously expensive, except for maybe something super common like 9mm Luger.

I can't imagine anyone that shoots a lot not reloading, so if you have reloading equipment the "availability" issue goes away. They are all available and all relatively cheap if you roll them off of your reloading press.

You are correct that the 1873 debuted with the 44/40 cartridge. It was Winchester's first centerfire (and maybe the first caliber period that was centerfire). The 1866 fired 44 rimfire.

ALL of these calibers will be PLENTY for home defense. put that out of your worry list. 13 rounds in a lever gun of 44/40, 45 Colt, or 38 Special/357 Mag will take care of ANYTHING you may need against 2 legged foes.

Thanks for the information.

What equipment do you use to reload the 44-40?

 

[Hello86]

I started reloading in 1972, started casting bullets in 1973. Using salvaged wheel weights and scrap lead to cast bullets, I was making most handgun calibers for less than 2 cents per round in those days. Now, using pre-panic supplies (primers, powder) I figure about 6 cents per round. If buying components at today's prices, probably about 12-15 cents per round. If purchasing ready-made bullets, add 10-20 cents per round.

There is relatively little difference in cost of reloading most of the handgun calibers (primers, powders, bullets). Cartridge case availability and cost per round will vary considerably, but with modest pressure loads cartridge cases last indefinitely (I have .38 Spl, .45ACP and other brass that has been loaded 50-plus times).

Factory .38 Special is becoming available again. Practice ammo about $20 per box. Premium ammo about $40-50 per box.

Factory .44-40 will be hard to find anywhere, and when found it will be $75-150 per box.

So, yes, you can save a lot of money by reloading (~10-30 cents per round vs. ~40 cents to $3 per round, or ~$5-$15 per box vs. ~$20 to $150 per box factory ammo). Well worth the investment of a couple hundred bucks for equipment, plus about $50 per caliber for dies, etc, and these things pay for themselves in the first 5 or 6 uses. Lots of YouTube tutorials, lots of good internet websites, lots of good instructional manuals.

The way it actually works for most of us is that we keep the budget about the same but end up shooting a lot more for the same dollars.

I have very little experience in black powder reloading of cartridge ammo. Again, lots of info and data available on-line or in books. No reason not to, if it appeals to you. If nothing else, you will learn a lot about firearms cleaning and maintenance! BP is smelly dirty stuff! NOTE: Keep black powder away from your good powder measure and scale, contamination is a serious risk.

Hope this helps.

Thank you. What equipment do you use to reload the 44-40?


I found some 44-40 ammuntion where I live.

A box of 50 rounds, Magtech 44-40A .44-40 WIN L-FLAT, $38.27.

A box of 50 rounds, PATRON MAGTECH .44-40 WIN COWBOY 225 GRS LFN, $40.66.

Much cheaper than $75-150 per box, but still not really cheap I guess. And the question is whether the price will not be raised soon.

 

[Hello86]

Here's my suggestion... buy a '66 in 38 Special. Enjoy shooting it while you learn to reload. Then get a '73 in 44-40 and go from there. You will appreciate the good qualities of both and learn something in the process.

John

Thanks John, yes maybe that.

 

[AJ]

Thank you. What equipment do you use to reload the 44-40?


I found some 44-40 ammuntion where I live.

A box of 50 rounds, Magtech 44-40A .44-40 WIN L-FLAT, $38.27.

A box of 50 rounds, PATRON MAGTECH .44-40 WIN COWBOY 225 GRS LFN, $40.66.

Much cheaper than $75-150 per box, but still not really cheap I guess. And the question is whether the price will not be raised soon.

What is the cost of .38 Special in your area?

 

[Hello86]

What is the cost of .38 Special in your area?

From about $15.84-$27.48, 50 rounds a box.

For example a box of 50 rounds:

- Magtech 38 Special 10,24 g/158 gr LRn: $15.84.

- Magtech 38A .38 SPL, LRN, $19.75.

- Geco 38 Special 10,2 g/158 gr JHP, $24.22.

- Fiocchi .38 Special 158gr SJSP: $27.48.

What do you think of those prices? Is it worth reloading the 38 special as well, do you think?