2 1905's oddities?

[LionWeight]

I have picked up a couple 1905's in the last six months that I wonder if they are oddities or not? The first is a 38 M&P Model or 1905 4th change serial # 371*** (thanks Jim and Rich from the SCSW #3) that I was lucky enough to get that is all numbers matching, fixed sights 6" barrel but there is nothing on the frame. No trademark stamped on it and there is no Made in USA either. The barrel is stamped normally, but nothing on the frame stumps me. I haven't seen that before.

The other is a (according to the book again) 32-20 HE Model 1905 1st change. This one I picked up yesterday and the serial # 33*** is stamped on the cylinder face, butt and barrel. There is a different number 26*** stamped on the frame side of the yoke. If the numbers were closer I would just think maybe stamped incorrectly. But since there are 2 serial #'s stamped on the frame I wonder.

I will post pics as soon as I can find my camera.

 

[Göring's S&W]

As for the first gun, the trademark would have been on the left side, below cylinder release. There are instances of guns leaving without the trademark and for a time, revolvers were not given a trademark at all. "MADE IN USA" did not arrive until 1922, approx. Your gun likely shipped 1920ish.

When you open the yoke of a pre model number S&W (both of your guns) you see an assembly number. This assembly number was used during manufacturing. It is not the serial number. Starting in 1956, for a short time, just the SN was placed there, then in 1957 or so, the model number was placed there too.

Your 38 special became the model 10 in 1957. 32-20 M&Ps were discontinued in 1940/41.

The simple serial number rule for S&Ws is: almost always on the butt (in a few select cases the SN was placed on the front strap of the grip frame) and sometimes in the yoke area (1956 and later)

 

[opoefc]

LionWeight, Your two S&Ws are common, not oddities, and Jim has explained them correctly. Post pics when you can. 32-20s are great fun to shoot! Enjoy! Ed.

 

[hoosier4guns]

This one should resemble yours...Serial Number 5826xx. Regards. Rich.

 

[Göring's S&W]

One other detail, FWIW, the K frame 38 special serial numbers hit 1,000,000 by 1940 or so (despite being shared with the 22 OD and K22/40) whereas there were just under 145,000 32-20s produced by 1940.

If your 32-20 is indeed a 1905 1st change, there were only 11,000 made, which makes it a little scarce.

However, as Ed has said, neither gun is an anomaly in terms of the features you describe, or lack-thereof.

 

[DocB]

They may be common; but, I haven't come across a nice pre-war K frame in nearly two years; and, if I don't find and buy two Smiths a month, I'm having a bad month.

 

[LionWeight]

pics and info

Here are some pics. The first 2 are the 38. I got this for 200 at Cabelas. I couldn't believe the price they had on it. The 2nd is the 32. I had to shell out 399 for this one. A little more than I wanted to, but I just don't see many of them and like the addition to my collection.

 

[semperfi71]

If I may add. I am not as experienced as some here but I have been lucky.

I own a M1905 4th Change with a 5 inch barrel that has no trademark and (from memory) no "Made In USA" either.

Research on this forum indicated that during WWI the U.S. government "took over" the S&W factory and oversaw the work and finish of S&W revolvers. As such the trademarks and logos were not placed on firearms going to the military. I assume most of the handguns made at that time were M1917 .45 ACP revolvers. I assume that not many revolvers of other frame sizes were made. BUT, the research indicated that the military turned the factory back over to S&W in 1919 (1920?). And as such by 1919 forward the production of "civilian" revolvers was again began. Therefore due to the previous "non-marked" processes, there were a number of civilian revolvers that were marked/un-marked as had been the military versions. One of our Forum members had three, and I have one. I think this occurred into 1920, maybe later because S&W was using "old stock" until they got back into full swing of regular markings.

 

[Göring's S&W]

Semperfi71,

Your explanation rings a bell, but I had forgotten the specific history. Thanks for posting.

Lionweight,

I would say you did fine on both. The 38 M&P's finish looks esp. dark, although the photo is dark itself. Be sure to check the grip frame for any markings such as (but not limited to): R-S, R-B, date codes 1.56, 10.58 or any diamond with "B" inside marking. These markings indicate a trip back to the factory, which often meant factory refinish, but not always. The gun looks original despite the poor quality photos. Even if its aftermarket refinished (I don't see a strong indication) I think you did fine for $200

The 32-20 seems to have more wear, and it does have the wrong stocks. The stocks are from the 1930s. Despite it having more wear, early 32-20s are few and far between.

 

[semperfi71]

Thank you Goring's S&W.

LionWeight, please take the time to check the serial numbers of your early S&Ws against the serial number of when S&W began heat-treating the cylinders. If yours fall below that number they are supposedly only safe with lower powered loads and nothing more. My 1919 M1905 is just across the line.

You can find the answer to the serial number/heat-treat issue by searching this forum, or I think it's in the SW Collectors book Number 3.

 

[JP@AK]

Heat treatment of cylinders started in September, 1919. On the .38 M&P, the first serial number was 316648; on the .32-20, it was 81287.

 

[LionWeight]

new to me

Thanks for all the good information. Yeah, the 38 was made before heat treating cylinders. Serial # 2913**. The 32-20 is the same with serial # 330**. Sorry about the pics. I hope these are better. The first 2 in this set are the 32 and the 2nd set the 38. Nope these are even darker even with the flash. There are no marks under the grips to indicate a factory return. The 32 absolutely has more wear on it, especially on the barrel both sides. I don't see indications of a refinish on either. The screws all have round heads and the lettering is all sharp and crisp. The last pic shows a model 10 and a Colt police positive. These are some of my older guns. Don't ask me why I like the old wheel guns but I do and that's for certain.