Been wandering around the forum and fruitlessly searching for a thread on .32-20 revolvers. I have a small pile of Colts but just a solitary old M&P chambered in that cartridge. Did Smith ever chamber other models in .32 WCF?
.32-20 questions
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DWalt
Member
No, just the K-frames. On the other hand, Colt offered a number of different revolvers chambered in .32-20.
Green Frog
Member
Haven't used the search function much, have ya? I went to the SEARCH button and typed in 32 20. In less than a second I had over 36,000 citations. The most recent was about a week and a half ago on the 3rd of the month. Some go on to several pages.
As for your specific question, according to SCSW, there were a fair number of K-frame (M&P) revolvers chambered in 32-20 or 32 Winchester or 32 WCF (all the same chamber of course, it's just that S&W didn't like to refer to their chamberings by the name of another firearms manufacturer.) IIRC, the M&P or Hand Ejector models only came in 4, 5 & 6" barrel lengths, but S&W did make a relatively small number of 6" target model guns otherwise identical to the pre-War 38 Spl target version. Again, going from memory, I don't think there were ever any frame sizes used for the 32-20 round (none are mentioned in SCSW) unlike Colt who used several.
Regards,
Froggie
As for your specific question, according to SCSW, there were a fair number of K-frame (M&P) revolvers chambered in 32-20 or 32 Winchester or 32 WCF (all the same chamber of course, it's just that S&W didn't like to refer to their chamberings by the name of another firearms manufacturer.) IIRC, the M&P or Hand Ejector models only came in 4, 5 & 6" barrel lengths, but S&W did make a relatively small number of 6" target model guns otherwise identical to the pre-War 38 Spl target version. Again, going from memory, I don't think there were ever any frame sizes used for the 32-20 round (none are mentioned in SCSW) unlike Colt who used several.
Regards,
Froggie
The search function is the greatest asset of this association. I urge all new members to grab a ham and swiss on rye and a cold beer and start punching different areas of interest into this fantastic engine. If you can not find it, just post a thread. You will receive a knowledgeable and kind reply. I have not seen any snarkey or un-kind replies. Mike 2796
"IIRC, the M&P or Hand Ejector models only came in 4, 5 & 6" barrel lengths, but S&W did make a relatively small number of 6" target model guns otherwise identical to the pre-War 38 Spl target version."
From 1899 to about 1909, S&W also made .32-20 M&Ps (also referred to as the Winchester Model) with 6 1/2" barrels.
From 1899 to about 1909, S&W also made .32-20 M&Ps (also referred to as the Winchester Model) with 6 1/2" barrels.
Rusty Shacklford
Member
Hello, I like the .32-20, because it's a bit different and old, similar to me.
"The introduction of the .38 Military and Police occurred in 1899 and was referred to as the Model of 1899. It was produced in two calibers, the .32 Winchester center fire (.32/20) and the .38 S&W special. . . . Guns of each series were serial numbered in a separate series."
"The .32/20 hand ejector was not an extremely popular revolver. Its sales were basically limited to sportsmen, since it made an excellent companion gun for those using a rifle of this caliber. . . . The last of the .32/20 hand ejectors was produced on September 8 1939. In the same year, the firm officially dropped this model from its catalog after producing 144,684 revolvers."
Source:" History of Smith and Wesson", Roy G. Jinks, p-160-161
There is a chart showing various changes in the model and barrel lengths of 4,5,6, and 6 1/2 inches.
Personally I would think that with their own similar cartridge, the .32 S&W long, and the more popular .38 S&W special there was not as great a desire or customer base. I would imagine that Colt produced relatively few .32 S&W long chambered weapons. There were approx. 1 million .38 special revolvers of identical design produced in the same time. I can find no listing of this caliber in another model or frame size.
"The introduction of the .38 Military and Police occurred in 1899 and was referred to as the Model of 1899. It was produced in two calibers, the .32 Winchester center fire (.32/20) and the .38 S&W special. . . . Guns of each series were serial numbered in a separate series."
"The .32/20 hand ejector was not an extremely popular revolver. Its sales were basically limited to sportsmen, since it made an excellent companion gun for those using a rifle of this caliber. . . . The last of the .32/20 hand ejectors was produced on September 8 1939. In the same year, the firm officially dropped this model from its catalog after producing 144,684 revolvers."
Source:" History of Smith and Wesson", Roy G. Jinks, p-160-161
There is a chart showing various changes in the model and barrel lengths of 4,5,6, and 6 1/2 inches.
Personally I would think that with their own similar cartridge, the .32 S&W long, and the more popular .38 S&W special there was not as great a desire or customer base. I would imagine that Colt produced relatively few .32 S&W long chambered weapons. There were approx. 1 million .38 special revolvers of identical design produced in the same time. I can find no listing of this caliber in another model or frame size.
I missed out on a fair condition Winchester '92 in 32-20 with a BIN of $700 a couple months ago. I would love to have one of those and a 4inch M&P both in that caliber.
I know this is what the Jinks book says. However, it is disputable as to whether the gun assembled on that date had anything to do with actual production runs. Most evidence indicates all the .32-20 frames were completed before the end of 1930. The model was still listed in the catalog until 1940, but new production was halted since there were lots of completed guns in the vault.
I had a conversation a few months ago with another knowledgeable member of this Forum and we tend to agree that some fixed sight frames were reworked as target guns and assembled throughout the 1930s. It very well may be that the gun referred to by Roy was assembled in September, 1939, as a special order gun. We know for a fact that some guns numbered in the 140xxx range shipped as early as 1930, and the highest number ever stamped was 144684.
Just some information in the FWIW department.
DWalt
Member
Allegedly, .32-20 production stopped ca. 1929, but they continued to be cataloged and sold from inventory until ca. 1940. There wasn't much interest in them during the Depression, and I imagine sales were extremely slow in the decade of the 1930s. The highest SN I show on my list is SN 144xxx, shipping in late 1936. The latest shipping date I show is for SN 143xxx shipping in late 1938. There are likely some .32-20s with later shipping dates around. I also show another in the upper 143xxx range as shipping in late 1931, strongly indicating that production must have stopped prior to that date. There is also one in the mid 141xxx range shown as shipping in early 1928.
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Rusty Shacklford
Member
Hello, Could you please give your source material? I would like to see a pic of a target sighted .32/20. I spent a few months in a class where all we did was play "dueling historians". We weren't allowed to say a word of our own, just to converse, argue, etc. using the quotes of others.
I like the book I quoted because, unlike may others, it has a good narrative. It tells the story of S&W, not just a listing of facts and numbers, though it is an old edition-1977. I would agree with you that setting a hard fast date on something produced on an assembly line is difficult, but show us something, especially pics. "Unless there's a pic it didn't happen".
I like the book I quoted because, unlike may others, it has a good narrative. It tells the story of S&W, not just a listing of facts and numbers, though it is an old edition-1977. I would agree with you that setting a hard fast date on something produced on an assembly line is difficult, but show us something, especially pics. "Unless there's a pic it didn't happen".
Sure. Here you go. This one is quite early. Notice the shape of the barrel where it joins the frame. Shipped in March, 1904.
Smith collecting is not that simple. We acquire knowledge over time from lots of different sources, including shared information that comes from factory issued letters. If there were one or two books you could read and thereby gain all the information to be had, half the fun and interest of collecting would evaporate.
The book you cited is now 37 years old. My autographed copy dates back to 1980. Even the venerable Mr. Jinks has learned a few things since he penned those pages. Our knowledge is not static; we continue to learn and refine our understanding.
But I've seen factory letters with Roy's signature on them, proving that most .32-20 revolvers were serialized before the end of 1930 and possibly as early as sometime in 1929 (which is the date DWalt prefers to use).
So believe us or don't believe us. That is your choice. We are only trying to share with you the fruit of our long experience.
The left one here was shown above. The square butt is from 1908.
Notice by this time the barrel threads have been enlarged and there is a distinct flare to the barrel where it mates to the frame.
Notice by this time the barrel threads have been enlarged and there is a distinct flare to the barrel where it mates to the frame.
DWalt
Member
"Hello, Could you please give your source material?"
Regarding what? The date of production cessation? It's very clear from known .32-20 revolver serial numbers and shipping dates that serial numbers in the 141xxx range and greater existed in the late 1920s-early 1930s, and with the last SN being 144684 there is no doubt that frame production stopped about that time.
There are parts inventories and finished products inventories. S&W had both for the .32-20s, and the likely course of events was that S&W quit making .32-20 parts in, say, 1929-30, and they placed those parts into storage inventory. At that time they may have had, say, a thousand assembled revolvers in finished products inventory. When those were sold out (perhaps in 1931), the likely procedure was to make up and finish a small number of .32-20 revolvers (let's say 200 for the sake of argument) using the .32-20 components in parts inventory. Those would go to finished products inventory, from where they were shipped to fill orders. When those revolvers were gone (or nearly gone), they'd assemble another 200, and so on, and so on, until the parts inventory had been exhausted. And that last .32-20 revolver made from parts manufactured in the 1920s could have been assembled (or shipped) on September 8, 1939. So there is a definitional issue as to the meaning of "produced." If you consider the final revolver being assembled from old parts as being "produced," then September 8, 1939 is the date of final production. If you consider the date of the last .32-20 frame being manufactured and serial numbered as occurring in 1929 (which is likely), then that would be the date of final production.
Regarding what? The date of production cessation? It's very clear from known .32-20 revolver serial numbers and shipping dates that serial numbers in the 141xxx range and greater existed in the late 1920s-early 1930s, and with the last SN being 144684 there is no doubt that frame production stopped about that time.
There are parts inventories and finished products inventories. S&W had both for the .32-20s, and the likely course of events was that S&W quit making .32-20 parts in, say, 1929-30, and they placed those parts into storage inventory. At that time they may have had, say, a thousand assembled revolvers in finished products inventory. When those were sold out (perhaps in 1931), the likely procedure was to make up and finish a small number of .32-20 revolvers (let's say 200 for the sake of argument) using the .32-20 components in parts inventory. Those would go to finished products inventory, from where they were shipped to fill orders. When those revolvers were gone (or nearly gone), they'd assemble another 200, and so on, and so on, until the parts inventory had been exhausted. And that last .32-20 revolver made from parts manufactured in the 1920s could have been assembled (or shipped) on September 8, 1939. So there is a definitional issue as to the meaning of "produced." If you consider the final revolver being assembled from old parts as being "produced," then September 8, 1939 is the date of final production. If you consider the date of the last .32-20 frame being manufactured and serial numbered as occurring in 1929 (which is likely), then that would be the date of final production.
Rusty Shacklford
Member
Hello, Thanks for the pics, though I haunt the local gun shows I've seen few .32/20s and never a target sighted version.
Clearly I spent too much time in Ms. Ironbottom's class, and I didn't say it was fun. I did not mean to impugn your knowledge, just asked. Chill out guys.
I never throw away a book, even if it is 37 years old, and unfortunately have never had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Jinks. Thanks for sharing.
Clearly I spent too much time in Ms. Ironbottom's class, and I didn't say it was fun. I did not mean to impugn your knowledge, just asked. Chill out guys.
I never throw away a book, even if it is 37 years old, and unfortunately have never had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Jinks. Thanks for sharing.
We don't need to "chill out." No one is hot. You asked. We answered.
I don't either (well, I once threw away a copy of the Bhagavad Gita - didn't think I needed it).
I would never suggest throwing away Roy's book. It is a great book and that was clearly NOT my point. If you are really interested in this stuff, buy a copy of his earlier book, co-authored by Bob Neal. Also a good read.
Cheers.
OP
I used it, I just got these results. Which is why I asked. .32-20 got a DIFFERENT result than 32-20
The following errors occurred with your search:
Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.
Wasn't the 32-20 a fairly hot round? Seems I read muzzle velocity over 1000 fps. That was pretty fast in those days, no?
rburg
Member
Its a wimp round..... 
My current favorite load is the same I use for .38 Wadcutters, 3.0 of Bullseye. Not an earth shaking round.
Back to the discussion. Look at the gun itself. Every .32-20 I've ever seen has the mushroom ejector knob. A well known feature of 1920s guns. Not the barrel shape from the 1930s we all know and love. Then look at the grips. The nice walnut one without a medallion. If they've got gold, they're from the 19-teens. If you find one with nice small silver (nickelplated) medallions, its because someone replaced them on your gun.
The books. No one alive and writing now was working and making guns in the 1920s. Its just a sad fact of the human life span. The writers we all quote and love are way too young. What's Roy? Maybe 70? Making him born in WWII? Supica and Nahas are even younger, mere babe's. Worse, they go so far as to plead ignorance from time to time. What they know they learned from collecting, running gun shops, and from our abusive emails when we caught them in a mistake. But be nice, they learn and change their edicts. We help them by sending them email.
My current favorite load is the same I use for .38 Wadcutters, 3.0 of Bullseye. Not an earth shaking round.Back to the discussion. Look at the gun itself. Every .32-20 I've ever seen has the mushroom ejector knob. A well known feature of 1920s guns. Not the barrel shape from the 1930s we all know and love. Then look at the grips. The nice walnut one without a medallion. If they've got gold, they're from the 19-teens. If you find one with nice small silver (nickelplated) medallions, its because someone replaced them on your gun.
The books. No one alive and writing now was working and making guns in the 1920s. Its just a sad fact of the human life span. The writers we all quote and love are way too young. What's Roy? Maybe 70? Making him born in WWII? Supica and Nahas are even younger, mere babe's. Worse, they go so far as to plead ignorance from time to time. What they know they learned from collecting, running gun shops, and from our abusive emails when we caught them in a mistake. But be nice, they learn and change their edicts. We help them by sending them email.
"Back to the discussion. Look at the gun itself. Every .32-20 I've ever seen has the mushroom ejector knob. A well known feature of 1920s guns. Not the barrel shape from the 1930s we all know and love. Then look at the grips. The nice walnut one without a medallion."
I have seen two (2) .32-20 revolvers with the barrel end ejector rods. I have also seen a .32-20 with silver medallion service grips.
Wish I had written down the SNs. Also, don't know if those silver medallion grips numbered to the revolver, either.
I have seen two (2) .32-20 revolvers with the barrel end ejector rods. I have also seen a .32-20 with silver medallion service grips.
Wish I had written down the SNs. Also, don't know if those silver medallion grips numbered to the revolver, either.
Gatorbaiter
Absent Comrade
32-20 M&P. SN 117, shipped 3/6/1899 to P.B. Bekeart & Co., San Francisco, CA, later shipped to England as evidenced by the English proofs, I bought it in Houston, Tx in 1981:
A pair of 32-20 M&P Target Models, top is square butt & bottom is round butt:
A very rare factory nickel plated Target Model 32-20 M&P:
A non factory engraved 32-20 M&P:
Probably a one-of-a-kind; 32-20 M&P shipped 11/14/28 to Shapleigh & Co. and returned to the factory in 9/42 to have a 32 Long cylinder fitted & numbered with the same serial number as the gun:
A pair of 32-20 M&P Target Models, top is square butt & bottom is round butt:
A very rare factory nickel plated Target Model 32-20 M&P:
A non factory engraved 32-20 M&P:
Probably a one-of-a-kind; 32-20 M&P shipped 11/14/28 to Shapleigh & Co. and returned to the factory in 9/42 to have a 32 Long cylinder fitted & numbered with the same serial number as the gun:
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