.357 Magnum question

[Sheepdogged]

I apologize for the length of this post, so I understand those who want to skip it. But I am trying to seek clarification about .357 Magnum vs. 10mm. But let me backup for a moment.

I've never owned a revolver. I know, that's a sad thing, so I'm considering recifying that to hunt whitetail with a pistol in the fall. I've heard from a few people who recommend going with a .44 Magnum or at least a .41 Magnum, even for medium-sized game, but with my arthritis I'm looking for a lower powered solution while being respectful of deer and wanting to recover my quarry.

On the other end of the spectrum, like in a Youtube video I just watched, some people seem fine with taking whitetails with just a 9mm Parabellum. Personally, I think that's likely pushing it by risking losing the animal and/or letting it suffer unnecessarily (correct me if I'm wrong, however).

In my state it is illegal to hunt with 9mm anyway. We can only hunt with a firearm using a straight wall cartridge in .357 caliber and up including including .355 calibers with a .357 designation (i.e. .357 SIG is fine after calling to check). These bullets must also be fired out of a 5" or longer barrel. I shoot .357 SIG. Not only is it next to impossible to find a 5" or 6" barrel for my SIG P229, but I know .357 Magnum has more power potential so I'd rather go that route anyway.

Now I am NOT a handloader which is why I'm turning to a forum. I know little more about it than kinetic energy = 1/2 mass times velocity squared), so I am looking for a sanity check from you all because I was under the impression that .357 Magnum has more potential power than a 10mm, but there seems to be a trend where 10mm factory ammo is being loaded more powerfully than .357 Magnum. Am I right, and if so, why is that?

For example, doing a search for medium game handgun ammo chambered in 10mm and .357 Magnum on Hornady's website, they offer one load for each caliber as seen below (10mm on the left and .357 Magnum on the right).

The first thing I noticed was that .357 Magnum has both a higher sectional density and ballistic coefficient than 10mm. It also has a higher case capacity (10mm which = 24.1 gr vs. .357 Magnum = 26.2 gr). None of this is surprising.

Then I noticed the rated 10mm out of a 5" barrel and .357 Magnum out of an 8" (indicating the latter is loaded even lighter than people might assume at first glance). Even then, the 10mm is loaded to deliver more energy. As you can see on the other image, whether we're talking about the muzzle, 50 yards or 100 yards, 10mm is loaded hotter.

Then I looked at Federal and compared their "Swift A-Frame" cartridge offerings in both calibers.

10mm 613 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy vs. .357 Magnum's 510 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy.

I also checked Winchester's offerings. Although they don't offer a 10mm game cartridge at the moment, it's still loaded hotter than their .357 deer loads (614 ft. lbs. vs. 535 ft. lbs.).

Taking Wikipedia with a huge grain of salt, they show the highest muzzle energy example for 10mm as 768 ft. lbs. while the .357 Magnum examplethey list is 802 ft. lbs.

When I checked Underwood's website, they seem to load according to the cartridge's true potential. Their 10mm hunting loads using Hornady's XTP bullets are rated at 676 ft. lbs. while their identical hunting handgun cartridge for .357 Magnum is rated at 770 ft. lbs. of energy.

Now I understand neither cartridge compares to rifle calibers, but why would the more mainstream ammunition companies underpower a .357 Magnum hunting round for handguns relative to 10mm, especially when many people believe .357 Magnum is a bit underpowered? Is it about selling more guns and ammo? In other words, would people stop buying as many .44 magnums if .357 Magnum was warm enough? Or is it truly unnecessary to have bullets loaded beyond what Hornady and Federal load their .357 Magnum handgun hunting calibers?

It seems to me that, IF I want to take a step down from .44 Mag or .41 mag to .357 Magnum, I might as well go with a 10mm over a .357 Magnum unless I want to handload. What do others think?

 

[diyj98]

To me it's pretty much a toss up between the two caliber. The 357 in theory should have a penetration edge, but the 10mm will punch a slightly larger opening. I prefer the 357 because they're no moon clips involved and I can shoot 38 specials in the same gun if I want.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

If arthritis is a problem why not use a lever gun. Then you can shoot a .44 Magnum and be done with it.

In the revolver scenario you set forth I would go with the .357 Magnum with a Hornady 140gr FTX bullet w/644 ft/lb energy.

 

[Peak53]

How big are the whitetails in your area? Florida or Minnesota? What range would you anticipate shooting?

 

[Sheepdogged]

If arthritis is a problem why not use a lever gun. Then you can shoot a .44 Magnum and be done with it.

In the revolver scenario you set forth I would go with the .357 Magnum with a Hornady 140gr FTX bullet w/644 ft/lb energy.

I'm specifically interested in the challenge of hunting with a pistol, but certainly that's a good idea.

 

[Sheepdogged]

How big are the whitetails in your area? Florida or Minnesota? What range would you anticipate shooting?

Ohio Crossbow Hunter’s Huge Whitetail Nets 227 Inches

 

[Darkenfast]

A Smith and Wesson L-frame with a six-inch barrel will generally come from the factory with synthetic rubber grips that, when combined with the weight of the gun, will be fairly comfortable to shoot. My experience is from a long time ago with slightly different rubber grips, but the L-frame was really tamed by the weight and cushioning.

A six-inch barreled revolver was once the choice of many a bulls-eye shooter for a reason: They're very easy to shoot accurately, especially in single-action. The six-inch tube gets a lot out of a .357. In one of his videos, Paul Harrell got about 1360 fps with Federal 158 gr. JSPs. They performed well on his meat target. Note that (when ammo is available!), they are one of the classic loads that have been around for decades and are fairly cheap.

My 10mm experience is a long time ago and I don't think the loads were very hot. I believe it's a good round, but finding a pistol with good precision and the right ammunition for it can be a bit of a project and very expensive.

Since you've never had a revolver, I'd suggest going "old-school", getting a good .357, a bunch of .38 and some .357 ammunition, and learn the pleasure of shooting less rounds more slowly.

My two cents and hope this helps!

 

[Greyman50]

FWIW, shot placement is everything. Killed a small buck with my Mdl.-19 6”few weeks after bought in 76. Neck shot that broke spine, dropped in its tracks. Knew guys around where grew up that killed deer with .22(illegal in Va.) but that put meat on their tables.

 

[murphydog]

I think either a well-placed .357 Magnum or 10 mm hunting load will get the job done, but what is your intention for the gun in terms of hunting distances, and for the 360 days of the year when you will not be hunting?

I wouldn't place absolute faith in energy delivered; there are plenty of rounds that are far more effective than they 'should' be on paper. For longer distances a heavier bullet may work better, even at lower velocities (assuming adequate penetration), so that favors the 10 mm.

On the other hand, if you'll be using even a moderate amount of expensive factory ammo for range or hunting practice, that highly favors the .38/.357.

Am I the first one to suggest buy one of each? Good luck in your decision.

 

[stansdds]

Back in the 1980's the late Robert Shimek published an article on hunting white tail deer with the 357 Magnum. His recommendations, and I agree, were to use a revolver with a barrel of not less than 6 inches, limit shots to broadside only, and at a maximum range of 50 yards. At the time, he was using a Model 19 with the hard to find, 8 3/8 inch barrel and preferred the zippy 125 grain JHP loads. He warned that with the explosive expansion of the 125 grain JHP, contact with a rib or any bone would result in the bullet fragmenting and not penetrating. I think a 158 or a 180 grain JHP would be a better choice.


357 Magnum vs. 10mm Auto, a long standing debate. Do not fall for the old lie that claims the 10mm Auto is close to the energy of a 41 Magnum. I have some experience with the 10mm as well as 357 and 44 Magnums. The 10mm Auto easily matches the energy of the 357 Magnum and, under some circumstances, can slightly exceed the 357 Magnum, but it is well short of being a 41 Magnum. A 10mm Auto can equal or slightly exceed 357 Magnum performance when comparing to revolvers with barrels up to 6 inches in length. A 357 revolver with an 8 inch barrel is likely going to provide more energy than a 10mm pistol, plus it gets you a much longer sight radius and mounting a low power scope on an 8 inch barreled revolver is often fairly easy.


Check out the Ballistics by the Inch website, they did some pretty interesting tests with a bunch of calibers and even experiments with varying barrel-cylinder gaps. Too bad they are no longer adding to their tests.
BBTI - Ballistics by the Inch :: Home

 

[THE PILGRIM]

Are you an Auto Guy or a Revolver Guy?
Either caliber will take deer at most ranges most of us can hit the Deer.
I didn’t see Elmer shoot the Outhouse but my Colorado Buddy did see him shoot that Eagle!
That is to say, some folks actually can shoot better than some of the rest of us.

 

[s&wchad]

Bigger and faster is better when it comes to hunting cartridges, but I think your reading too much into handgun ballistics. 500 ft/lb's of energy versus 600 ft/lb's won't make a lick difference to a medium sized game animal, provided you do your part and put the bullet where it belongs. Both the 10mm and .357 Magnum are adequate for deer size game if you hit the vitals (heart/lungs). Neck and head shots are risky and can easily result in wounded/lost game. I've seen game animals lost that were hit with a .30-06, .300 Weatherby Mag , .45-70, etc... Some of these cartridges have muzzle energies of 3000 to 4000 ft/lb's.

The theoretical ballistics edge goes to the 10mm, since it's a larger diameter projectile, is generally heavier and operates at a higher pressures. While there are revolvers chambered in 10mm, it's most commonly associated with semi-automatics. A lot of handgun hunters prefer optical sights for improved accuracy and it's generally easier to mount optics on a revolver, which swings the advantage the other way. In normal times, .357 Magnum ammo is a lot easier to find in the store. I've seen people show up at camp, only to discover they forgot their ammo. Availability can be a big deal!

High volume manufacturers don't really download .357 Magnum cartridges. Boutique manufacturers like Buffalo Bore and Underwood run small batches and push the envelope. It's also not a matter of case volume. The volume of a .38 Special case is more than enough for magnum loads, but they don't do it because they don't want to produce ammunition that could blow up guns not made to handle Magnum pressures.

SAAMI specifications limit the .357 magnum to 35,000 psi, because they're primarily fired in revolvers. the 10mm is listed at 37,500 psi. The .357 Maximum operated at 40,000 psi and wasn't a successful revolver cartridge because of premature flame cutting and forcing cone erosion. Revolvers have unique limitations, but so do semi-autos.

If you are going to hunt with a handgun, spend a lot of time at the range and become really proficient with your gun of choice. When hunting, limit your shots to distances you can consistently hit a 10" circle and wait for a proper broadside shot.

 

[glenwolde]

With a well placed shot I doubt the deer will know the difference. Likewise with a poorly placed shot. I think you're splitting hairs. The real-world advantage of a few more foot pounds of energy is nil. There's just not enough of a difference in power to make a difference to me. The fastest car doesn't win the race. The best driver does, as long as the car is competitive.

Given you are not a reloader I'd go with the .357. There's a broader selection of ammo and it's (normally) easier to find. There's also a bigger selection of guns in .357.

 

[BigMuddy]

I’ve taken several deer with revolvers with several different cartridges. None have been with either if the two in question. Why? Because I do reload and there are better choices. For recoil sensitive shooters the 45 Colt in standard pressure loads with a SWC lead bullet will penetrate a whitetail from stem to stern. But.... ammo is expensive.

If I were a non-reloader I would without question choose the 357. Ammo price and ability to practice more would be the reason. No matter what cartridge you choose to handgun hunt with, the most important thing is shot placement. Proper shot placement takes practice...lots of it.

My first handgun deer was taken in 1985 with a Ruger Redhawk 44. I worked up an accurate load and went hunting. Probably shot 20 rounds to get “confident” in my gun and load. Made a horrible shot and recovered the deer after a long tedious nerve racking 4 hour tracking job. Dropped the idea of hunting with handguns for a few years. Reslized later it wasn’t the gun’s fault it was mine. I didn’t put in the necessary work to be proficient enough with my chosen weapon.

This long diatribe is to say don’t make the mistake I did on that first handgun hunt. The 357, with lots if practice (yes you can use 38’s) will be much better than any mega cannon that gets fired very little.

The difference in performance between a 10mm and a 357 would be negligible, but I think I would prefer the 10 with 200 grain bullets. But again since I reload my ammo cost would not be much different.

Good luck in your choice and I hope you come to love handgun hunting as much as I do.

Dan

 

[Nevada Ed]

I have taken large Nevada Bucks shooting a 6" .357 Magnum with the old
Speer 160 gr. jacket/lead FP doing 1230 fps with just 537 ft/lbs of energy.

With 2400 powder the 158 XTP will give me 1340 fps with 630 M/E.

I would try to find some Underwood ammo for a test run if I had to buy Factory ammo
for deer hunting, maybe some Buff. Bore if nothing else.

Being able to shoot light 38 ammo is also a nice option.

Good luck.

 

[oldman10mm]

I enjoy shooting 44M, 41M, 10mm, & 357M. I'm 74 and it's strictly range shooting, I don't hunt.
In the 357M vs 10mm Q by the OP, it depends on the firearm.
357M in a 6" M686 vs a 10mm pistol, I'd opt for the 6" M686.
357M in a 6" M686 vs a 10mm revolver (as in my case a M610 with 6.5" barrel), I'd opt for the 10mm revolver.
If I had to hunt for survival I'd go with a 357M lever action rifle.

 

[oddshooter]

The 357 Maximum is my suggestion if you handloaded. It shoots beautifully to 200 yards in Silhouette.

That caliber is the clear winner at the firing line.
The forcing cone erosion and top strap cutting was from too much powder pushing too light of a bullet.
That was known and folks still did it with poor results. I don't use 124gr bullets, but 196gr bullets designed by Lee Martin and David Bradshaw just two years ago.
NO erosion or cutting !

The gun writers (Milek) destroyed one of the greatest calibers ever invented because they didn't get freebies.
And folks still repeat the BS history created by the media.

Prescut

 

[Nevada Ed]

The 357 Maximum is my suggestion if you handloaded. It shoots beautifully to 200 yards in Silhouette.

That caliber is the clear winner at the firing line.
The forcing cone erosion and top strap cutting was from too much powder pushing too light of a bullet.
That was known and folks still did it with poor results. I don't use 124gr bullets, but 196gr bullets designed by Lee Martin and David Bradshaw just two years ago.
NO erosion or cutting !

The gun writers (Milek) destroyed one of the greatest calibers ever invented because they didn't get freebies.
And folks still repeat the BS history created by the media.

Prescut

+1;
I never cared for a 110 or 125 gr JHP in my .357 magnums and saved
those weights for my little 38 J frame for light target work.

I prefered the heavier 140 gr XTP or heavier bullets for better accuracy in my 6" revolvers for top fps loads.
Slow lead for target work.

 

[jdh]

357 Sig is a straight walled case?

 

[dave1918a2]

I have handgun hunted since We first got it passed in Colorado. I have taken 10 MM, 357 mag, and 41 mag factory loads to the range, all factory rounds, and put them across a chronograph. I used a Colt Delta, and S&W 28 and 57. 5 inch bbl in the Colt and 6 for the Smiths. 10 MM 180 gr load advertised at 1200 muzzle velocity, actual out of My gun 1090. 158 gr 357 advertised 1250 muzzle velocity. Out of My gun, 1200. 41 Mag 210 XTP advertised muzzle velocity 1250. Actual out of My gun, 1255. Velocities rounded up or down to 5 or 0. I think some companies hedge their ballistics as some states Like CO have a minimum energy requirement at 50 yards. When guys at the Club ask Me what to use for Elk I tell them 44 mag minimum. And I also tell them to put at least 500 rounds downrange prior. Get used to the recoil and develop what I call magnum hand and wrist. Whichever You choose, spend lot's of time at the range. The animal will appreciate it.