357 Magnum versus protective vest?
- Thread starter Naphtali
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It depends on the vest rating ("level"), I think. As mentioned above, a projectile that does not penetrate will still cause plenty of kinetic energy trauma. Hope you never have to find out.
Google Richard C. Davis. He invented a light weight body armor and tested it on himself in 1972 and around 200 times since then. Heavy bruising to the impact area. Possible broken ribs depending on caliber, impact, etc. Wouldn't be fun but better than the alternative.
Depends upon bullet design, level of protection, angle of impact, quality of vest, and care of same. The old metal sternum plates are pretty much passe', a miracle fiber replacement is generally included.
Whatever the physical damage-and there'll be some-it beats getting perforated.
FWIW, after 9/11 the bean counters picked our issue vests. After they failed independent testing by someone else, ours were replaced free of charge. All vests are not created equal. I only wore issue on training days when we were gonna get dirty, hot & sweatier than usual.
Whatever the physical damage-and there'll be some-it beats getting perforated.
FWIW, after 9/11 the bean counters picked our issue vests. After they failed independent testing by someone else, ours were replaced free of charge. All vests are not created equal. I only wore issue on training days when we were gonna get dirty, hot & sweatier than usual.
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Echo40
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Although it wouldn't penetrate a modern Level 3 Ballistics Vest, I imagine that it would still hurt quite badly, possibly leaving the one on the receiving end with cracked ribs.
Soft Body Armor stops bullets, but does virtually nothing for blunt force trauma. I recall reading an unfortunate report from several years ago in which some dumb kid threw a New Years Party in which he put on a little show for his guests by throwing on a Ballistics Vest then he had a friend shoot him with a 12 Gauge Slug. The vest stopped the projectile, but the blunt force trauma was so intense that it ended up resulting in his death.
Soft Body Armor stops bullets, but does virtually nothing for blunt force trauma. I recall reading an unfortunate report from several years ago in which some dumb kid threw a New Years Party in which he put on a little show for his guests by throwing on a Ballistics Vest then he had a friend shoot him with a 12 Gauge Slug. The vest stopped the projectile, but the blunt force trauma was so intense that it ended up resulting in his death.
A video shows a test with a 125gr 357sig not a 357mag so depending on barrel length velocity bullet type it could be close to the same . Look at the clay block and decide if you think damage to a persons body could be .
Video [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrEwoW8FkWY[/ame]
Video [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FrEwoW8FkWY[/ame]
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cd228
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A lot of variables. Distance from Muzzle, Muzzle Velocity, the build of the individual wearing the vest, Rating of Vest etc.
That said, I would expect that if a .357 158 grain JSP strikes center mass on a NIJ Level II/HG1 or higher vest that is in good condition from about 5 meters or more, that the round will not penetrate based on the NIJ test protocols. Based on comments from gun shot survivors and the news, I would expect bruising and discomfort.
HOWEVER, if the round is a special threat round or a contact shot, I am not confident in the above. FBI and DEA have their own armor standards that specifically require contact shots. While I am not an expert on Special threat (High Velocity, AP, etc.) rounds, nor am I tracking a 158 GR .357 one, but.....
A factor in what the shootee will do when hit is mental. If they have been watching movies and have been conditioned that when people get shot they fall down, they might throw themselves on the ground. If they watch Mythbusters and know that a gunshot won't necessarily throw you around they will probably stand and fight.
That said, I would expect that if a .357 158 grain JSP strikes center mass on a NIJ Level II/HG1 or higher vest that is in good condition from about 5 meters or more, that the round will not penetrate based on the NIJ test protocols. Based on comments from gun shot survivors and the news, I would expect bruising and discomfort.
HOWEVER, if the round is a special threat round or a contact shot, I am not confident in the above. FBI and DEA have their own armor standards that specifically require contact shots. While I am not an expert on Special threat (High Velocity, AP, etc.) rounds, nor am I tracking a 158 GR .357 one, but.....
A factor in what the shootee will do when hit is mental. If they have been watching movies and have been conditioned that when people get shot they fall down, they might throw themselves on the ground. If they watch Mythbusters and know that a gunshot won't necessarily throw you around they will probably stand and fight.
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I recall watching a video of Richard Davis ( Second Chance Vests) shooting Himself in the chest with a .357 Mag. He went down and when He finished with the profanity all that could be heard was " Damn that hurts!"
LoboGunLeather
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My experience with soft body armor started in the mid-1970s with the original "Second Chance" Kevlar vest, and continued through to the early-1990s as NIJ rating standards evolved and ballistic plates became the norm.
I knew two guys who were struck by handgun fire while wearing vests, neither one was a magnum. Both incidents included fractures (ribs or sternum) and both resulted in severe bruising injuries. Both also resulted in hospital admissions, and both fully recovered.
Every model I was familiar with was bulky and very uncomfortable, particularly in hot weather, and limited mobility (getting in and out of vehicles, etc). My weight was around 165 lbs back in those days, and I remember weighing myself in the locker room before going on duty and again at the end of a shift; not unusual to lose 4 or 5 lbs of body weight from perspiration. Obviously, remaining hydrated is a serious issue.
Also, there was considerable resistance on some departments to having issued or required vests. The issue was workers compensation coverage, which might be denied or seriously reduced in the event of an officer either not wearing the vest or not having it properly adjusted at the time of injury.
I knew two guys who were struck by handgun fire while wearing vests, neither one was a magnum. Both incidents included fractures (ribs or sternum) and both resulted in severe bruising injuries. Both also resulted in hospital admissions, and both fully recovered.
Every model I was familiar with was bulky and very uncomfortable, particularly in hot weather, and limited mobility (getting in and out of vehicles, etc). My weight was around 165 lbs back in those days, and I remember weighing myself in the locker room before going on duty and again at the end of a shift; not unusual to lose 4 or 5 lbs of body weight from perspiration. Obviously, remaining hydrated is a serious issue.
Also, there was considerable resistance on some departments to having issued or required vests. The issue was workers compensation coverage, which might be denied or seriously reduced in the event of an officer either not wearing the vest or not having it properly adjusted at the time of injury.
cd228
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As I was pondering this thread, I wondered what are you you actually trying to figure out?
Are you trying to figure out if someone just took a chest shot to the vest with a .357 should go to the hospital? If so, as former EMT and current Soldier, I would recommend they go to the hospital and get checked out in case they did break a rib, injured by bullet fragmentation, have a cardiac event, etc. or have another injury masked by the pain or adrenaline. If they RMAed or refused transport I wouldn't fight them though.
Are you trying to figure out if the "shock" of getting hit is going to put someone out of the fight? I would recommend that you consider that individual still a threat until you confirm they are not and even if they drop, I'd still consider them a threat until they are disarmed and restrained.
Is someone telling you that a .357 to armor is a fight stopper? If they are, I'd point to the LEs, Soldiers and Other Individuals that have taken a Penetrating Chest wound and continued to fight. For example Robert Nett, check out his MoH. Now, as I mentioned above the shootee may take that hit and decide they are done for the day, or they could get really angry and want to fight back harder.
I hope my comments are usefull to you.
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I bought my first soft armor from Davis. Shortly thereafter his doctor convinced him that repetitive trauma to the abdomen was hazardous to his health. He'd made his point by then.
rockquarry
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I watched a documentary about Davis several years ago, but I have little interest in bullet proof vests. The program might be worth watching for those who like that sort of thing.
T112-4
US Veteran
I watched a test on level 3 soft vest that was not that professional. Using a self defense ammo 357cal. listed at 50gr, 2100fps. It blew right through the vest and into back stop material. With a plate in the vest, it did not penetrate but the clay block behind the vest looked like a fist had been driven into it. Not a bullet weight fps combination ai want to be shooting in my S&W.
Let me raise a point here. Even with ceramic/steel plates, you're supposed to be using cover. Someone who straps on any kind of armor and then believes they're bullet proof is going to rapidly discover they're not.
Supplemental rifle rated plate carriers were made available for special occasions. We had to wear them during the run, gun & communicate phase of the tactical course (time limited and scored). The things were heavy and depended upon the BGs being good shots. Most decided they weren't worth wearing.
Supplemental rifle rated plate carriers were made available for special occasions. We had to wear them during the run, gun & communicate phase of the tactical course (time limited and scored). The things were heavy and depended upon the BGs being good shots. Most decided they weren't worth wearing.
cd228
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The mention of Davis' name reminds me of the origions of bowling pin shooting. Davis would demonstrate his vest by shooting himself while wearing it, then shooting bowling pins with the same gun.
Here is a source to that info: Pin Shoot | The Richard C. Davis Story
Here is a source to that info: Pin Shoot | The Richard C. Davis Story
Vests, both tactical and soft, have been around long enough that folks who intend to harm those wearing vests train to shoot above or below them. The same is true for person-borne suicide (PBIED) vests.
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[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3jQb6QwSz0[/ame]
At about 14:40 he shoots himself with a .38 special
SWFan27
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That round through my Henry 20 inch barrel rifle would be screaming. Through a stubby obviously much slower. A lot depends on what you are shooting it through.
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