.38 148 Grain HBWC Test

[jimmyj]

Hi:
Tested the 148 Grain Reversed HBWC with 2.8 Grains Bullseye.
Weapon used was a S&W Model 638-3 2".
Accuracy at 7 yds, 15 yds, and 25 yds was good (indoor range with poor lighting)
A few rounds at each distance "Keyholed". For self defense I don't know if "Keyholing" is a positive or negative concern.
Jimmy

 

[perrazi]

what I have done in the past is to flare the case a little more than usual,then carefully seat bullet with about 1/4th of the length out of the case with a light crimp. see if that helps with the keyholing.

 

[hotrod150]

That's a pretty light load, looks like about 740 fps per my old Speer book. Did you test for bullet expansion at all? I think that a little more velocity would make that reversed HBWC more effective as a self-defense load, but I don't know if it would help hurt or make no difference with accuracy &/or tumbling.

 

[Nevada Ed]

3.1grs of Bullseye with a f100 primer in my snub nose was still under 700 fps..............

Lyman shows 3.5gr with a 150gr lead at only 16,500 cup which
is still a 38 special loading.

Glad to see you got to get out and do a little shooting.........
and a bullet that tumbles is not always a bad thing for a SD load.

 

[gwpercle]

The latest issue of Handloader Magazine has an article on this very subject. Tested loads from 2 inch J frame, Bullseye powder, 148 gr swaged HBWC loaded hollow base as hollow point. Long story short the winning load was 3.5 grs BE @ 801 fps expansion was .715 inch ( almost 3/4 inch ).
Second place was 3.4 grs. BE, @ 767 fps, expanded to .625 inch ( 5/8 inch ) .
No details given on bullet seating depth, accuracy and tumbling....seems like he could have said something about these factors. But 3.5 grs will give you the 800 fps out of the 2 inch barrel which was the speed I was looking for.

Gary

 

[ChuckS1]

Well, if it keyholes, does that make your .38 a .76?

 

[jimmyj]

Hi:
Thanks guys for the replies and information.
I will try 3.1 and 3.5 grains Bullseye. My only concern is the powder charge in a airweight "J" frame ?
Jimmy

 

[Nevada Ed]

I think 3.5 Bull will be plain "Handy" in that J frame..........
3.3grs of Red Dot is my max load and it usually has more fps than the same weight of Bull in my snub.
You should be near 770 fps or maybe a little more and close to 195 ft/lb of energy which I think is good enough for a light
J frame SD load with that weight bullet.

It also is very close to the Winchester 110gr silver-tip in energy for a light SD loading. I don't think the 110gr is the best medicine but you have to use what is around at the time.

Heck, Hornady now makes a SD 22 magnum loading !!

No problem with that 38 "CANNON" !!

 

[chief38]

Wadcutters are accurate and do cut nice clean holes in paper targets, but I am not a big fan of them. I do shoot them from time to time because my Dad left me a bunch of them, but I do notice they lead up the forcing cone and charge holes more than the RNL 158's do. My favorite .38 special
target load is 158 grain RNL hard cast bullet over 3.1 grains of Tightgroup.
I find them just as accurate as the WC's and no leading.

For defense work I would not use either! I like the BB LSWCHP-GC HEAVY 38 Special +P (#20A).

 

[Dale53]

I currently carry the Federal FBI +P load in my daily carry (Model 642 with Crimson Trace Grips).

However, if I were reloading for self defense I would go with the H&G #251 dbl ended w/c. Actual tests have shown more than adequate penetration (sometimes perpetrators are BIG) and does serious tissue damage. I have used that a good bit on small game and I can tell you it flat does the job! The wound track is pretty dern impressive. Further, they shoot quite well, too (to fifty yards or so). Here is a load recommended by C.E.(Ed) Harris after serious development work. I shot this standing at 25 yards:


Note: This was NOT fired with my snubbie but my 6" 686-4.

Off the Ransom Rest it will do 3/4" at 25 yards. The dispersion on this target is ALL on ME...

FWIW
Dale53

 

[jtcarm]

2" may not be enough to stabilize a full wadcutter.

Jimmy Clark once wrote about his conversion of 1911s to .38 spl for National Match Pistol. I dunno if he was using .38 Super barrels, but he said they could just barely make to the 50-yard targets before accuracy went to pot.

Key-holing is death to accuracy and penetration.

 

[Nevada Ed]

What is a full wad cutter ?

My M49 with 148 HBwc and standard 158 Lscw and LRN will
punch groups at ten feet under an inch................

I have posted pictures of a 158 lead load with all 5 bullets touching at a ten foot target................
and a 148gr HBwc reload putting a factory Remington 148 to shame.

Every gun and shooter is different.................. that's what makes shooting so much fun.

 

[hotrod150]

2" may not be enough to stabilize a full wadcutter. Jimmy Clark once wrote about his conversion of 1911s to .38 spl for National Match Pistol. I dunno if he was using .38 Super barrels, but he said they could just barely make to the 50-yard targets before accuracy went to pot. Key-holing is death to accuracy and penetration.

I doubt a 2" barrel is the cause of instability. I think velocity and barrel twist have more to do with it- of course, barrel length does have an effect on velocity. In the example above, I suspect that he was shooting powder-puff loads that at 50 yards were running out of enough velocity to keep the bullet stabilized. I agree about keyholing-- tumbling after impact is one thing (I don't think it's a good thing but supposedly the damage from that is one of the reasons the US military picked the 5.56/M16 service rifle combination) but tumbling mid-flight as would produce keyholed hits is definitely bad for accuracy.
BTW someone posted recently about the "Atomic Ammunition" 38 SPL +P "lead hollowpoint (upside down wadcutter)". Atomic claims 1000 fps out of a 4" barrel & 875 fps out of a 2" snubby, which is certainly more than possible. That kind of velocity might be enough to stabilize even a tail-heavy bullet in flight, at least enough for short-range self defense use.

 

[Kenley]

The "standard" bullseye match load has always been 3gr Bullseye behind a 148 gr HBWC seated flush. I tried 2.5 in my 4" Dan Wesson and at 50 yds they stuck in the plywood target backing.Went back to 3gr. I tried 3.7behind the HBWC loaded BACKWARDS on Javilina. Killed em dead. Looked like one hellava wound cavity, but I never recovered any bullets.

 

[hotrod150]

I'm tempted to try the reversed HBWC load. I really like Speer's swaged bullets due to the dry lube they use, it's very nice & clean to work with. I even found some in stock at Cheaper Than Dirt, but they come in a 500 count box and I don't really want that many. I wouldn't mind half a box-- anyone interested in buying the other half from me?

 

[4barrel]

If you wont to hop up a hbwc get some copper plated ones and turn around and let them stick out 1/8 inch.

 

[jimmyj]

7/12/2013

Hi:
I loaded 3.5 grain Bullseye with the 148 grain HBWC (reversed) and was still getting 25% keyholing at ranges 7, 15, and 25 yards.
I then followed "Perrazi" recommendation and using a wider case mouth bell seated the bullet leaving 1/4" out of the case mouth with a light crimp.
Results using a S&W Model 638-3 2" :
7 yards - 1 keyhole
15 yards - negative keyholes
25 yards - 1 keyhole
*** 7, 15, and 25 yards was shot Double Action
second string firing at 25 yard using Single Action mode - accuracy improved

 

[Moonman]

jimmyj,

OK, enough of the KEYHOLE stuff, NOW get your 12 Gage out and stop the threat!

 

[hotrod150]

3.5 gr Bullseye still seems a bit light, I was thinking that 4.5 gr W231 would be about right . I think you need to steam them up a bit to get the bullet to stabilize in flight.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Are you sure you're actually getting keyholing? Are you using a solid backer for the target? In the past shooters have seen what they thought was the bullet keyholing but the paper target was actually moving and making the hole appear as the bullet keyholed.

IMO a 148gr DEWC @ at least 800 fps would be a better choice than a HBWC loaded normally or backwards. The skirt really doesn't help in expansion anyway. The whole reason we use a WC is for the full caliber meplat, not because it will expand.