.38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load

[agent00]

I am looking for new ammo to try out in my smith wesson model 27-2.

For self defense purposes I prefer to use 38 special rounds indoors for self defense. Full mag loads would be a bit overkill.

The .38 Special LSWCHP +P should offer more than enough performance needed.

As a history buff I am interested in .38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load.

I wonder if any of the available loads are close to the "original" specs or not?

 

[Farmer17]

I think most of the current FBI loads by Remington, Winchester, and Federal are pretty close to original ballistics.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Modern bullet designs and construction...as well as improved propellants...make new ammunition better than ever.

 

[Erocksmash]

I carry underwood 158grn +p in my J airweight... they are heavy hitters, at the very least acurate out of my gun... I'm sure just fine in a 27...

 

[Matt_X]

As a history, you would probably want to begin with the FBI studies. Brassfetcher.com had parts of those pdf on line. Last I checked those links are currently broken. But that would be the best place to start - the primary source documents. Brassfetch still has a summary explaining the protocol. This protocol was developed for the needs of the FBI - which is not really the same as citizen self defense although of course tehre is overlap.


There's numerous summeries and comparisons on-line but you'll have to decide which ones are better based on the historical record and which ones are more assumptions and guessing.


There's a number of threads in this forum by members who have personal experience or looked into the subject.
Here's one
Evaluating the .38 Spl+P FBI Load/Gelatin overreliance

 

[Sixgun100]

Check out the Buffalo Bore version.

 

[WR Moore]

OK, with corrected for real world conditions specifications*, the typical .38+P 158 gr lead hollow point round has a claimed velocity of 890 f/s out of the SAAMI test barrels. That's pretty much the standard for all the various ammunition companies, but velocity out of your gun will likely be somewhat less. Federal 38G was the original factory product code for their version. R3812 was the old Remington product code.

However, expansion is likely to be an issue. Hardness of the lead in the original production isn't known. A number of more recent tests have shown that hitting bone (sternum or ribs) greatly helps expansion. My personal testing hasn't allowed me to recover ANY examples from various manufacturers. 24 inches plus of tissue penetration is excessive.

As a result, unless you live in a Schloss with stone walls or something with foot thick log walls, I'd avoid the FBI/Chicago/name an agency load for defensive use in the home. For that purpose, a 125 gr +P JHP from many manufacturers would be a much better choice. The Speer Gold Dot is what I load when I'm using a revolver.

I do have to admit that the Federal 38G is my spare ammo. If I need that, I may actually need more penetration.

*The original specifications allowed the use of longer test barrels that didn't simulate the barrel/cylinder gap.

 

[BB4XL]

That round was more for short barrel guns. I will be fine in your gun.

 

[rockquarry]

I chronographed some of the Federal 158 SWC HP +P ammo; from a Model 14 w/ 6" barrel, MV averaged 972, from a Model 15 w/ 4" barrel, MV averaged 935.

 

[Bald1]

I’ve always carried the Federal version in my J frame. Can’t speak to velocity but as accurate as a load can be out of a 2” barrel

 

[pharmer]

Being located in Europe you might get some of these (the HP loads have same ballistics as the SWC). Not "+P" but full power and reasonably priced. Joe
Prvi Partizan 38 Special Ammunition 158 Grain Semi-Wadcutter PPH38SS

 

[RoiVin]

I went through this exercise myself.

Of current 158gr LWSCHP offerings the "gold standard' is Buffalo Bore. But there are very good less pricey alternatives.

Buffalo Bore offer both a standard pressure version and +P version.
My preference is for the 'standard' pressure over the "+P" version - both seem equally effective and I can use the 'standard' pressure my older non+P revolvers as well. You just need 20-40 rounds of this ammo - enough to test and check zero, and then load your gun (and maybe a speedloader or two).

The Remington HTP LSWCHP+P is good. I am not impressed with the current Winchester or Federal versions.

As you are in Austira, I will say I have had very good experience Prvi Partizan .38 special and .357 magnum ammo.
The PPU 357 Mag 158gr JHP chronos at 950fps out of my 5" TRR8. Pretty pleasant to shoot by .357 standards.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[agent00]

@all Thanks a lot for the replies.

@pharmer Thanks a lot for mentioning the 38 special load from ppu. That kind of ammo is easily available and worth considering.

@RoiVin Thanks for your advice as well. As mentioned above, ppu ammo is easily available, so it is worth checking out.

Remington http is also available, but as readily as the ppu rounds.

Buffalo Bore is a nice brand I have read many great things about, but I have never seen any rounds from that company in Europe.

@WR MOORE Thanks for naming the 125 gr +P JHP rounds a viable alternative. I will conduct only research asap to see which rounds in that ballpark are available here in Austria.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

OK, with corrected for real world conditions specifications*, the typical .38+P 158 gr lead hollow point round has a claimed velocity of 890 f/s out of the SAAMI test barrels. That's pretty much the standard for all the various ammunition companies, but velocity out of your gun will likely be somewhat less. Federal 38G was the original factory product code for their version. R3812 was the old Remington product code.

However, expansion is likely to be an issue. Hardness of the lead in the original production isn't known. A number of more recent tests have shown that hitting bone (sternum or ribs) greatly helps expansion. My personal testing hasn't allowed me to recover ANY examples from various manufacturers. 24 inches plus of tissue penetration is excessive.

As a result, unless you live in a Schloss with stone walls or something with foot thick log walls, I'd avoid the FBI/Chicago/name an agency load for defensive use in the home. For that purpose, a 125 gr +P JHP from many manufacturers would be a much better choice. The Speer Gold Dot is what I load when I'm using a revolver.

I do have to admit that the Federal 38G is my spare ammo. If I need that, I may actually need more penetration.

*The original specifications allowed the use of longer test barrels that didn't simulate the barrel/cylinder gap.

I have no significant doubts about hardness of the lead bullet metal. All of the Federal, Remington, and other factory loads of the era utilized swaged bullets which are formed in a die under pressure forcing the lead into final form. That process requires pure (or very nearly pure) lead; any significant inclusion of other metals (tin, antimony, arsenic, etc) results in hardening of the alloy that reduces ductility and causes fracturing under the pressures of swaging.

Swaged bullets are very uniform (dimensions and weight) and quite soft. Lubrication is typically done by knurling the bullet bodies and tumbling in a mixture of graphite and waxes. The combination of softness and minimal lubrication is a limiting factor on the velocity levels achievable without resulting in excessive fouling of the chambers, bore, forcing cone, cylinder face by leading transfer.

Some of the more modern variations on this theme, such as the Buffalo Bore and Underwood offerings, use cast SWC-HP bullets of harder lead alloys. This helps overcome the older limitations, but also reduces the potential expansion capabilities of the bullets.

 

[RoiVin]

Buffalo Bore and Underwood offerings, use cast SWC-HP bullets of harder lead alloys. This helps overcome the older limitations, but also reduces the potential expansion capabilities of the bullets.

For the .38 special LSWCHP loadings (standard pressure and +P) Buffalo Bore uses a very soft lead bullet with a gas check.

 

[rockquarry]

For the .38 special LSWCHP loadings (standard pressure and +P) Buffalo Bore uses a very soft lead bullet with a gas check.

Unless fit is perfect, a gas check won't stop leading regardless of the hardness of a cast bullet. If fit is right, an incredibly soft bullet can be fired at a relatively high velocity without leading; I'm thinking of my own experience with .357 loads.

 

[Vtgw938]

Federal still does a run every so often. I picked some up a year or two ago.

 

[rockquarry]

Federal still does a run every so often. I picked some up a year or two ago.

Target Sports had that recently and may still have it. I think it was around $30.00 a box.

 

[Farmer17]

Don't discount the effectiveness of that old sharp shoulder semi-wadcutter bullet vs the modern jacketed hollow points. That shoulder chops a full caliber hole all the way through and the jacketed hollow points slip easily through the skin and gradually start expanding but not reaching their full size expansion until after many inches of travel. The old timers said the SWC had a lot more impact "shock" than a rounder nose.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Don't discount the effectiveness of that old sharp shoulder semi-wadcutter bullet vs the modern jacketed hollow points. That shoulder chops a full caliber hole all the way through and the jacketed hollow points slip easily through the skin a and gradually start expanding but not reaching their full size expansion until after many inches of travel. The old timers said the SWC had a lot more impact "shock" than a rounder nose.

Excellent post! Exceptionally clear and directly to the point of this discussion.