.38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load

[agent00]

I am looking for new ammo to try out in my smith wesson model 27-2.

For self defense purposes I prefer to use 38 special rounds indoors for self defense. Full mag loads would be a bit overkill.

The .38 Special LSWCHP +P should offer more than enough performance needed.

As a history buff I am interested in .38 Special LSWCHP +P FBI load.

I wonder if any of the available loads are close to the "original" specs or not?

 

[Farmer17]

I think most of the current FBI loads by Remington, Winchester, and Federal are pretty close to original ballistics.

 

[SnidelyWhiplash]

Modern bullet designs and construction...as well as improved propellants...make new ammunition better than ever.

 

[Erocksmash]

I carry underwood 158grn +p in my J airweight... they are heavy hitters, at the very least acurate out of my gun... I'm sure just fine in a 27...

 

[Matt_X]

As a history, you would probably want to begin with the FBI studies. Brassfetcher.com had parts of those pdf on line. Last I checked those links are currently broken. But that would be the best place to start - the primary source documents. Brassfetch still has a summary explaining the protocol. This protocol was developed for the needs of the FBI - which is not really the same as citizen self defense although of course tehre is overlap.


There's numerous summeries and comparisons on-line but you'll have to decide which ones are better based on the historical record and which ones are more assumptions and guessing.


There's a number of threads in this forum by members who have personal experience or looked into the subject.
Here's one
Evaluating the .38 Spl+P FBI Load/Gelatin overreliance

 

[Sixgun100]

Check out the Buffalo Bore version.

 

[WR Moore]

OK, with corrected for real world conditions specifications*, the typical .38+P 158 gr lead hollow point round has a claimed velocity of 890 f/s out of the SAAMI test barrels. That's pretty much the standard for all the various ammunition companies, but velocity out of your gun will likely be somewhat less. Federal 38G was the original factory product code for their version. R3812 was the old Remington product code.

However, expansion is likely to be an issue. Hardness of the lead in the original production isn't known. A number of more recent tests have shown that hitting bone (sternum or ribs) greatly helps expansion. My personal testing hasn't allowed me to recover ANY examples from various manufacturers. 24 inches plus of tissue penetration is excessive.

As a result, unless you live in a Schloss with stone walls or something with foot thick log walls, I'd avoid the FBI/Chicago/name an agency load for defensive use in the home. For that purpose, a 125 gr +P JHP from many manufacturers would be a much better choice. The Speer Gold Dot is what I load when I'm using a revolver.

I do have to admit that the Federal 38G is my spare ammo. If I need that, I may actually need more penetration.

*The original specifications allowed the use of longer test barrels that didn't simulate the barrel/cylinder gap.

 

[BB4XL]

That round was more for short barrel guns. I will be fine in your gun.

 

[rockquarry]

I chronographed some of the Federal 158 SWC HP +P ammo; from a Model 14 w/ 6" barrel, MV averaged 972, from a Model 15 w/ 4" barrel, MV averaged 935.

 

[Bald1]

I've always carried the Federal version in my J frame. Can't speak to velocity but as accurate as a load can be out of a 2" barrel

 

[pharmer]

Being located in Europe you might get some of these (the HP loads have same ballistics as the SWC). Not "+P" but full power and reasonably priced. Joe
Prvi Partizan 38 Special Ammunition 158 Grain Semi-Wadcutter PPH38SS

 

[RoiVin]

I went through this exercise myself.

Of current 158gr LWSCHP offerings the "gold standard' is Buffalo Bore. But there are very good less pricey alternatives.

Buffalo Bore offer both a standard pressure version and +P version.
My preference is for the 'standard' pressure over the "+P" version - both seem equally effective and I can use the 'standard' pressure my older non+P revolvers as well. You just need 20-40 rounds of this ammo - enough to test and check zero, and then load your gun (and maybe a speedloader or two).

The Remington HTP LSWCHP+P is good. I am not impressed with the current Winchester or Federal versions.

As you are in Austira, I will say I have had very good experience Prvi Partizan .38 special and .357 magnum ammo.
The PPU 357 Mag 158gr JHP chronos at 950fps out of my 5" TRR8. Pretty pleasant to shoot by .357 standards.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[agent00]

@all Thanks a lot for the replies.

@pharmer Thanks a lot for mentioning the 38 special load from ppu. That kind of ammo is easily available and worth considering.

@RoiVin Thanks for your advice as well. As mentioned above, ppu ammo is easily available, so it is worth checking out.

Remington http is also available, but as readily as the ppu rounds.

Buffalo Bore is a nice brand I have read many great things about, but I have never seen any rounds from that company in Europe.

@WR MOORE Thanks for naming the 125 gr +P JHP rounds a viable alternative. I will conduct only research asap to see which rounds in that ballpark are available here in Austria.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

OK, with corrected for real world conditions specifications*, the typical .38+P 158 gr lead hollow point round has a claimed velocity of 890 f/s out of the SAAMI test barrels. That's pretty much the standard for all the various ammunition companies, but velocity out of your gun will likely be somewhat less. Federal 38G was the original factory product code for their version. R3812 was the old Remington product code.

However, expansion is likely to be an issue. Hardness of the lead in the original production isn't known. A number of more recent tests have shown that hitting bone (sternum or ribs) greatly helps expansion. My personal testing hasn't allowed me to recover ANY examples from various manufacturers. 24 inches plus of tissue penetration is excessive.

As a result, unless you live in a Schloss with stone walls or something with foot thick log walls, I'd avoid the FBI/Chicago/name an agency load for defensive use in the home. For that purpose, a 125 gr +P JHP from many manufacturers would be a much better choice. The Speer Gold Dot is what I load when I'm using a revolver.

I do have to admit that the Federal 38G is my spare ammo. If I need that, I may actually need more penetration.

*The original specifications allowed the use of longer test barrels that didn't simulate the barrel/cylinder gap.

I have no significant doubts about hardness of the lead bullet metal. All of the Federal, Remington, and other factory loads of the era utilized swaged bullets which are formed in a die under pressure forcing the lead into final form. That process requires pure (or very nearly pure) lead; any significant inclusion of other metals (tin, antimony, arsenic, etc) results in hardening of the alloy that reduces ductility and causes fracturing under the pressures of swaging.

Swaged bullets are very uniform (dimensions and weight) and quite soft. Lubrication is typically done by knurling the bullet bodies and tumbling in a mixture of graphite and waxes. The combination of softness and minimal lubrication is a limiting factor on the velocity levels achievable without resulting in excessive fouling of the chambers, bore, forcing cone, cylinder face by leading transfer.

Some of the more modern variations on this theme, such as the Buffalo Bore and Underwood offerings, use cast SWC-HP bullets of harder lead alloys. This helps overcome the older limitations, but also reduces the potential expansion capabilities of the bullets.

 

[RoiVin]

Buffalo Bore and Underwood offerings, use cast SWC-HP bullets of harder lead alloys. This helps overcome the older limitations, but also reduces the potential expansion capabilities of the bullets.

For the .38 special LSWCHP loadings (standard pressure and +P) Buffalo Bore uses a very soft lead bullet with a gas check.

 

[rockquarry]

For the .38 special LSWCHP loadings (standard pressure and +P) Buffalo Bore uses a very soft lead bullet with a gas check.

Unless fit is perfect, a gas check won't stop leading regardless of the hardness of a cast bullet. If fit is right, an incredibly soft bullet can be fired at a relatively high velocity without leading; I'm thinking of my own experience with .357 loads.

 

[Vtgw938]

Federal still does a run every so often. I picked some up a year or two ago.

 

[rockquarry]

Federal still does a run every so often. I picked some up a year or two ago.

Target Sports had that recently and may still have it. I think it was around $30.00 a box.

 

[Farmer17]

Don't discount the effectiveness of that old sharp shoulder semi-wadcutter bullet vs the modern jacketed hollow points. That shoulder chops a full caliber hole all the way through and the jacketed hollow points slip easily through the skin and gradually start expanding but not reaching their full size expansion until after many inches of travel. The old timers said the SWC had a lot more impact "shock" than a rounder nose.

 

[LoboGunLeather]

Don't discount the effectiveness of that old sharp shoulder semi-wadcutter bullet vs the modern jacketed hollow points. That shoulder chops a full caliber hole all the way through and the jacketed hollow points slip easily through the skin a and gradually start expanding but not reaching their full size expansion until after many inches of travel. The old timers said the SWC had a lot more impact "shock" than a rounder nose.

Excellent post! Exceptionally clear and directly to the point of this discussion.

 

[JWintergreen]

One could go down a very deep rabbit hole on this topic. This ol' FBI load had been loaded at various velocities by the big three over the years. Some versions have worked better than others.

The latest Federal batch (.38G) works very well out of a four inch barrel. Here is a feller on youtube that got an average of 950fps out of a four inch 686. (Skip to the 10 minute mark).
[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjqgfLxblyg&t=780s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RjqgfLxblyg&t=780s[/ame]

 

[agent00]

Thanks a lot for the further replies guys. Very intersting stuff.

Also a big thanks to JWintergreen for the neat testing video.


@all I also advice to consider some 38 special 125 grain ammo as potential self defense load

I did some research and found out the a 125 sjhp load from magtech would be easily available.

A load from remington called REM 23771 would also be on backorder.

Do we have some users here that experiece with the 125 grain sjhp loads from remington and magtech?

 

[Matt_X]

Re: Magtech. Not a manufacturer I would rely on for a defensive or competition loads. See my post here


Re: using a cartridge with a lighter weight bullet.
The concept is that a lighter projectilve can be propelled faster and therefore will be more likely to expand. The drawback is that a lighter bullet carries less momentum. So its a tradeoff. In a non +P this could be worth it, especially with a short barrel. But it is a tradeoff.


Also, especially in revolver, a lighter bullet may change the point of impact (lower).



Might want to look at Brassfetcher.com for some of the science, older Paul Harrell videos for some of his experiments and discussion, and the Lucky Gunner Laboratory testing for some comparisons. If you are doing police work you will have slightly different needs than a citizen. Keep that in mind when reading about FBI and military testing. As citizens we don't shoot generally through things at maybe threats.

 

[WR Moore]

IF whoever loads Remington now keeps the original material specifications, the Remington 125 gr SJHP +P should expand well. The original +P loads expanded well, penetration was at the low end of FBI requirements, just right for self defense use.

At typical SD range, any change of POI is irrelevant. My experience was about 3 inches low at 25 yards. Raise your point of aim slightly.

As noted in at least one other thread, tests in the new easy to use "ballistic gel" don't produce the same results as tests in calibrated 10% actual ballistic gelatin. Does allow you to compare various loads. Somebody did tests using both and published the differences, but I don't recall what they were.

 

[JWintergreen]

The old Remington 125 grain SJHP .38 Special +P loading is fantastic out of a four inch barrel. For snubbies, the Golden Saber 125 grain "compact" loading is a very underrated round.


[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1YTscBaPPc"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1YTscBaPPc[/ame]

[ame="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRUSjvfRcwY&t=323s"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mRUSjvfRcwY&t=323s[/ame]

 

[agent00]

Thanks a lot for the further information guys.

@JWintergreen Thanks for posting another interesting test video.

 

[agent00]

Sorry for the the double post. What do you guys think about the Federal .38 Special "Train and Protect" LSWC-HP rounds?

That is another type of ammo I came across in my search for some 158 grain loads that migh be worth considering for home defense.

Do you guys have any exeperience/knowlege about that rounds?

 

[Narragansett]

I just came across an old box of Winchester 38 LSWCHP that are labeled " Police ". I think this is from the 70's or 80's. It has been in one of my ammo cans for a long time

 

[chief38]

I think I still have 6-8 boxes of the modern Remington HTP +P 158 grain .38 specials (FBI load) that I bought a few years back. They are OK, but not reliable expanders in most guns - especially carry length guns. To expand, a bullet needs a minimum velocity to do so. You did not list the barrel length in your M27, but in a 4-6" barrel you might have a chance at some expansion. Out of a 2" tube - no way.

When I carried a 2" Chief's Special, I used to carry Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC which in a 2" barrel produce 1,025 ft/sec. Not only are these specs advertised by the company, I have actually verified them with a chronograph as well, many times. Buffalo Bore is pretty much the ONLY company I am aware of that is honest when they rate their ammo performance. They list the performance out of ACTUAL revolvers in specific barrel lengths - not "test barrels". While the recoil is quite stiff in a J frame, in a M27 it should be a powder puff - lol.

 

[agent00]

I still have 6-8 boxes of the modern Remington HTP +P 158 grain .38 specials (FBI load) that I bought a few years back. They are OK, but not reliable expanders in most guns - especially carry length guns. To expand, a bullet needs a minimum velocity to do so. You did not list the barrel length in your M27, but in a 4-6" barrel you might have a chance at some expansion. Out of a 2" tube - no way.

When I carried a 2" Chief's Special, I used to carry Buffalo Bore +P 158 grain LSWCHP-GC which in a 2" barrel produce 1,025 ft/sec. Not only are these specs advertised by the company, I have actually verified them with a chronograph as well, many times. Buffalo Bore is pretty much the ONLY company I am aware of that is honest when they rate their ammo performance. They list the performance out of ACTUAL revolvers in specific barrel lengths - not "test barrels". While the recoil is quite stiff in a J frame, in a M27 it should be a powder puff - lol.

Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I forgot to mention the barrel length of my m27. It is a .4-inch model.

Speaking about the barrel lengh. I come across some opinions that heavier 158 grain rounds are better for short barrel lengh while for 4 inch plus range some ligher 38 special loads might be better suited.

in the lighter 38 special balll park I might be a oble to obtain some 125 grain sjhp round.

I am not sure if the opinions available only about the bullet weights and barre lenght have some merrit or not.

Just want to mention it because this opinion does not make much sense to me as a lay person.

As far as I know, there was time when there was a 110 grain JHP load in 38 special (called treasury load), which had quite a good reputation in some tactical settings, but I do not believe it was as effective as the 158 grain load in 38 special..