38 special model verification

[-Virginian-]

Hello,

My mother has a S&W .38 spl that she's going to sell me and could use some help identifying and possible value of. We've done our best to obtain as much info as we could.

I called S&W and based on the serial number the tech person stated the gun should have been made around 1957. His best guess is that it is a "chief's special" and stated they made a bunch of these. He also stated that if it flips open to load the cylinder (not break open) it is a "J" frame.

Here's a quote from my mother's description: "Serial # = 87802 no letters at all, stamped on bottom of frame
Could be: Model 60, or Model 637 – they are itentical except for barrel length. Model 60 has a 2.125 barrel, the 637 has a 1.875" barrel. Both are .38 Special, shoot 5 rounds. Barrel on my gun is stamped ".38 S&W Spl" and frame has the round trademark stamped on the left side. Right side of frame is stamped "Made in USA, Marcas Registradas, Smith & Wesson, Springfield, Mass." Frame appears to have three screws on right side of frame. Looks like it might be a "J" frame. Satin stainless finish. Front sight is sharply ribbed, rear sight is sunk flush into the frame. Extractor has a knurled knob in it's middle. Model 60 is priced by S&W on website at $729; 637 is $469. I'm sure these are new prices and gun isn't new."

Here's some pics she emailed me. Can you define exactly which model it is and it's approximate value? I wish to buy it from her and want be fair as to it's value. It doesn't have the original grip but we may have them. I have to root through my father's stuff after we lost him. It does not have the original box and it is in very good condition.

Thank you,

Eric

 

[Jim NNN]

Anything on the inside of the yoke? Looks like a model 60, but I don't know stainless guns too well. But 1957 isn't stainless, that's for sure. Doesn't look nickle from the photo, though.

 

[P&R Fan]

The Catalog puts that serial number as a gun made in 1956. It is indeed a Chief's Special. A year later it was re-named the M36. The M60, which is stainless, came out in 1965.
Looks like a nice one. If you can find the original stocks and box the value will increase.
I would say it's probably worth about $400.
Jim

 

[Pizza Bob]

Where did you find the serial number? There were no model 60's in 1957. That was the year they started stamping the model number Iunder the crane.

Look under the crane to see if there is a model number. Remove the grips and look on the bottom of the grip frame for the serial number.

Either that is not the serial number and you have model 60. Or, you have 36 or it's antecedent that has been refinished.

Also, those grips may be Fuzzy Farrant's, which in themselves may be worth $150+

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[-Virginian-]

Where did you find the serial number? There were no model 60's in 1957. That was the year they started stamping the model number Iunder the crane.

Look under the crane to see if there is a model number. Remove the grips and look on the bottom of the grip frame for the serial number.

Either that is not the serial number and you have model 60. Or, you have 36 or it's antecedent that has been refinished.

Also, those grips may be Fuzzy Farrant's, which in themselves may be worth $150+

Adios,

Pizza Bob

Bob,

I do not have the pistol in front of me so I'm getting this info second hand. She removed the grips to obtain the serial number off the bottom inside of the frame. She look closely & there were no other markings inside the grips.

She doesn't remember whether it was purchased new or used but here's the story on why it was purchased. Pop was a pilot stationed on Edwards Airforce base and they had gotten married in 1964 or 65 (I don't remember). At that time you had to drive quite a distance to go to the nearest town in those days which was Lancaster. There were several incidents of guys doing "bump" into ladies cars to get them to pull over or run them off the road. Pop purchased this for mom and told her if this situation arises; pull over and point the gun at them out the window. They'll run for sure! Shake you hand a bit to make it look like your nervous & they'll move ion all the more faster.

I should state that she is no stranger to shoot and a damn fine shot her whole life. They replaced the grips because she felt like she was holding a toy and didn't have much control aim with the stock grips. With these grips the gun grouped amazingly well considering the short barrel. Much to pop's surprise.

Fortunately no incident ever happened and the gun hasn't been fired in decades. She's 81 now and her eyesight is declining so she felt before she possibly moves to a home where they don't allow firearms, it was time for it to go.

I'm always fascinated with the stories behind any gun in it's lifetime. Truly amazing to me!

Probably too much information here but thanks for trying to help us on his topic.

Eric

 

[murphydog]

A nice looking J frame. As others noted, it is most likely a model 36 in nickel finish or a stainless model 60. The alloy frame of the otherwise similar model 37 looks different. In the condition pictured, either would be worth $400 or so.

The model number and the serial number (from the bottom of the grip frame) would be the key to an ID and age. Here is a post for ID information:

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-hand-ejectors-1896-1961/326457-identify-your-gun.html

I used to live somewhere in the vicinity of Edwards AFB - it is still in the middle of nowhere, but Lancaster has grown somewhat in the past 50 years.

 

[Jim NNN]

Just swing open the cylinder, that will likely be the key to giving you all the information you seek. Boy, that thing looks stainless to me. Might just be the light in the photos, though.

 

[-Virginian-]

Just swing open the cylinder, that will likely be the key to giving you all the information you seek. Boy, that thing looks stainless to me. Might just be the light in the photos, though.

it is stainless this I am sure of. I'll chat with my mother tomorrow and ask her to swing open the chamber. Should she look in someplace in particular for markings?

Thank you for your reply.

Eric

 

[Retired W4]

If it is stainless it is a model 60, and will be marked as such on the frame under the yoke and below the barrel. When you (or her) open the cylinder you will see M-60 impressed there, if it is stainless. Most M-60's I have seen have flash chrome trigger and hammer. That gun looks to have case hardened trigger and hammer. That tends to point to a nickel plated gun but I'm sure there are exceptions. Good luck and happy hunting.

BTW, there are differences between the 60 and 637. One is stainless steel and the other is an alloy frame (Airweight). The 637 should be marked as Airweight.

 

[Biggfoot44]

No , it's a nickle M36 or else one of the very last pre-36 and aka Chief Special in either case. Not possable to be a M60 tstainless), if nothing else because of the confirmed time frame. The M60 was introduced in 1965 , and for the first several years were in such high demand they were difficult to find , and selling for substantially above retail, kind of like M29's post Dirty Harry. Conversely Nickle guns were still reasonably popular in that era.

 

[Jim NNN]

Should she look in someplace in particular for markings?

On the part of the frame now exposed by opening the cylinder, there might be a model designation. On my mid- '60's era model 36 that I'm looking at right now, it says "MOD. 36". If yours is a model 60, it should say "MOD. 60".

Or there might not be a model designation. There might be some sort of assembly number in smaller script (these numbers don't have much significance to casual collectors.) This would mean your gun was made early 1957 or before. They had no model numbers back then.

This is why the stainless vs. nickle is an issue raised by those commenting. They didn't make stainless guns until the '60's. If your gun is stainless, then it can't be from the 50's, so the serial # is either misread or wrong.

I'm not saying the gun is one or the other, just that the photos make the finish look stainless.

Here's a picture of a nickle plated revolver (admittedly with the finish shined up and in good shape.)

http://www.illinoiscarry.com/forum/uploads/monthly_03_2011/post-51-13014232353.jpg

 

[-Virginian-]

Ok, we had another chat on the phone and with the cylinder folded open there's a "Z" marking on the front side of the cylinder. No other markings stamped on the cylinder or on the frame where the cylinder slides in.

The pistol is most definitely stainless steel. With this info it sounds like I should call S&W again and see what they say. It's strange to me that S&W would not clearly mark specific models but they had their reasons.

Eric

 

[Pizza Bob]

it is stainless this I am sure of.

If the serial number is correct, then it definitely is NOT stainless. The fact that there is no model number under the crane, would jive with the date of manufacture (ca 1956) based on the serial number. What you have is a pre-model 36 that someone has refinished in electroless nickel or some other type of stainless-appearing finish. That may hurt its value but enhance its practicality. Value $300 - $375 - exclusive of the grips

I find the grips interesting - they very much look like Fuzzy Farrant grips. If that is the case - the grips alone may be worth in excess of $200.

Show us a picture of the serial number on the bottom of the grip frame and also the area of the frame under the crane.

Adios,

Pizza Bob

 

[-Virginian-]

Bob,

Understood regarding the stainless issue. I'll see what I can do getting more pictures. I think a trip down to my mother's is in order to get some of this info. We'll get to the bottom of this mystery one way or another.

Eric

 

[-Virginian-]

Bob,

New info tonight... First off, my apologies for doling out tidbits of information to everyone. My brother stopped by and took a look for her. I should have got all the intel before I posted. My mother's eyesight is really failing so she's not to blame. I am for not getting it my self. We are about 4 hours apart and I haven't made the time to drive down there.

Here's the latest and greatest as quoted:

I explained the problems to him, and he took the gun, opened it, and saw things I never saw! I guess my vision is more blind than I knew Eric, I had really searched the inside surfaces. But when cylinder is rocked out, the part of the frame that then exposes, is clearly stamped MOD.60 - just like the forum guy named "Jim" said it should be. That places the gun squarely after l960, and I think makes it a Model 60 for sure. But in the same location, he also sees it stamped (he had me write this down for you) GS 4 (whatever that means) and the serial number was repeated. He made it out to be 87802, no letters - the same number exactly as I took off the end of the grip frame. So that serial number is really positive I think, no mistake there. But he studied the finish on the gun in bright halogen light, and he declares he can't be sure it is stainless, perhaps it could be nickel finish.

None of this info changes the mystery much however, of the serial number that was made prior to l960, and stamped with MOD.60 after l960.

Now you need to find out what GS 4 stands for. Maybe that will explain everything. What is the "crane" which one of those forum guys says to look at? The "yoke" I understand. I gave him the ruler and had him measure the barrel, and he got 1 and 3/4" which probably translates to l.875" in decimals. I will took off the grips, nothing in the inside of the wood of the grips, no emblem, stamp, metal tag, burned in - nothing.
BUT !!! Got more information while I was under the grips. I haven't had them off gun since I first copied the serial number stamped in the frame. At the time I did that, I didn't appreciate the importance of all these little details. Just above the serial number is the number 5 - all by itself, and stamped with what appears to be an apostrophe to the left of it....like this: '5
And to the right of that metal pin that holds the grips in place, there is G S again, with the S stamped slightly above the G (out of alignment), and using a different size stamp - in other words the S is smaller than the G. It would be logical to me, if it was a C S, standing perhaps for Chiefs Special, but it's not a C, it's definitely a G.

So with this said, I'll plan a trip down to visit her and get the skinny first hand. I'll post up pics and what I find at that time.

Again mea culpa,

Eric

 

[pharmer]

Ive got a Model 60 with a 3 letter prefix. The "A" (in AWD) is very faint, barely readable. Just might be an "R" in front of that number. That would clear up this mystery right quick. Joe

 

[murphydog]

Eric;

The arm holding the cylinder that rotates out is called the "yoke" in S & W land, and the "crane" by other makers.

So far, the letters and numbers you describe (in the frame cutout for the yoke, on the yoke itself, and the sides of the grip frame) are all factory internal codes from the workers who assembled and fitted the parts. These have no meaning outside the factory. The official serial number (as indicated in the "To Identify Your Gun" link above) is on the 'bottom' of the grip frame.

I will put on my Carnac the Magnificent turban and guess this number falls between 475,000 and 500,000. Is this correct?

 

[linde]

. . . when cylinder is rocked out, the part of the frame that then exposes, is clearly stamped MOD.60 . . . That makes it a Model 60 for sure . . . and the serial number was repeated. He made it out to be 87802, no letters - the same number exactly as I took off the end of the grip frame.

I truly believe that we still do not know the serial number. Not sure what is meant by the "end of the grip frame" but the serial number is found on the butt of the grip frame like this:



I believe 87802 is an assembly number . . . or sometimes referred to as a process control number . . . and will be found on the yoke, the yoke cutout of the frame, and on the lower left side of the grip frame.

The GS4, the S G and 5 are all likely fitters &/or inspector's marks and are of no help in identification or use once the gun leaves the factory.

Russ

Edit to add: sorry for duplicating Alan's post . . . he covered it well and quicker than me.

 

[JP@AK]

sorry for duplicating Alan's post . . . he covered it well and quicker than me.

Yeah, Russ. But you posted a picture.
He's one up on you, Alan!

 

[Pizza Bob]

Curiouser and curiouser. Couple big "IF's" here - If the model number is just "Mod 60" with no dash number after it (i.e. 60-1) then it would have been made between 1965 and 1969. In 1969 the went to an "R" prefix serial number. Is it possible the "4" is part of the serial number and not part of the "GS" (which as has been said is an assembly designator)? That would make the serial number 487802, which is in the correct range for a no-dash model 60. It would look like this...

Also, the barrel length is measured from the face of the cylinder to the end of the barrel - not where the barrel enters the frame.

It will be interesting to see where this all ends up, but I think that's going to take having the gun in hand.

Adios,

Pizza Bob