1911haulic
Member
I have 38 SPL for the pistol, but was wondering if 38 SPL+P can be safely used. Thanks for the replies.
38 SPL+P in 1969 vintage 36
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Yes
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Following on RGNewell's reply, consensus here -- and I believe it's correct -- is that factory .38 Special +P ammo today is usually loaded to the same or less pressure than standard .38 Special ammo was when your Model 36 was built.
Hence, yes, safe to shoot +P in your vintage steel J-frame.
Hence, yes, safe to shoot +P in your vintage steel J-frame.
Art Doc
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
All concerns regarding +P is based on the mistaken belief that it is loaded to high pressure. It is not.
Current production 38 Special +P ammo from the major manufacturers is typically not all that hot and is safe in S&W revolvers originally chambered in 38 Special and definitely in revolvers that have a model number. 38 Special +P from boutique ammo suppliers like Buffalo Bore are much hotter. I would use boutique 38 Special +P in very limited quantities in a S&W 38 Special revolver that has a model number. With the boutique loads, I would practice with standard 38 Special and just shoot one or two cylinders full for familiarization at each practice session.
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First off, if your S&W has a model number, it's generally considered safe to use +P ammunition. There are a few exceptions.
Now, about pressure. There used to be an extensive readable explanation on the Speer website about the differences between copper crusher (CUP) and piezo-electric (PSI) pressure measurements and the difference between standard and +P pressures. Also a discussion about the different maximum pressures for ammunition [MAP, MPLM and MPSM]. Unfortunately, it isn't there anymore. MAP, or Maximum Average Pressure is the value most manufacturers use as it's intended to make exceeding the MPLM (Maximum Probable Lot Mean) value very unlikely. The Maximum Probable Sample Mean seems intended to establish the very outer boundary of pressure a random sample might produce.
Short form: per SAAMI documents, there is a difference between maximum average pressure for standard pressure loads and +P loads. Standard MAP for .38 Spl is 17,000 CUP/ 17000 psi. The +P MAP is 20,000 CUP/ 18500 psi.
So, are today's pressures lower than those of yesteryear? Contrary to popular belief, most ammunition is loaded to a velocity specification below MAP for the cartridge. The reduced velocities seen today are due to modern testing being done in barrel lengths that match most handguns in that caliber rather than in the test barrel length specified by whoever developed the cartridge (8 some inches for the .38 Spl.).
Now, were there some loads at some point in time loaded to damn the pressures level? Yes. the factory .38-44 loads in standard 38 Spl cases were intended only for use in heavy frame revolvers. They approached the later .357 Magnum in velocities and probably exceeded it's MAP. Various other sources have done similar things. I rather expect that some boutique ammo makers flirt with the .38 +P PSLM limit of 19,900 psi, if they pressure test.
If someone has some old stuff they're convinced exceeds todays limits, put up some ammo and let's crowd fund a test by HP White or someone similar for pressure.
Now, about pressure. There used to be an extensive readable explanation on the Speer website about the differences between copper crusher (CUP) and piezo-electric (PSI) pressure measurements and the difference between standard and +P pressures. Also a discussion about the different maximum pressures for ammunition [MAP, MPLM and MPSM]. Unfortunately, it isn't there anymore. MAP, or Maximum Average Pressure is the value most manufacturers use as it's intended to make exceeding the MPLM (Maximum Probable Lot Mean) value very unlikely. The Maximum Probable Sample Mean seems intended to establish the very outer boundary of pressure a random sample might produce.
Short form: per SAAMI documents, there is a difference between maximum average pressure for standard pressure loads and +P loads. Standard MAP for .38 Spl is 17,000 CUP/ 17000 psi. The +P MAP is 20,000 CUP/ 18500 psi.
So, are today's pressures lower than those of yesteryear? Contrary to popular belief, most ammunition is loaded to a velocity specification below MAP for the cartridge. The reduced velocities seen today are due to modern testing being done in barrel lengths that match most handguns in that caliber rather than in the test barrel length specified by whoever developed the cartridge (8 some inches for the .38 Spl.).
Now, were there some loads at some point in time loaded to damn the pressures level? Yes. the factory .38-44 loads in standard 38 Spl cases were intended only for use in heavy frame revolvers. They approached the later .357 Magnum in velocities and probably exceeded it's MAP. Various other sources have done similar things. I rather expect that some boutique ammo makers flirt with the .38 +P PSLM limit of 19,900 psi, if they pressure test.
If someone has some old stuff they're convinced exceeds todays limits, put up some ammo and let's crowd fund a test by HP White or someone similar for pressure.
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jjmIII_Ruger
Member
I love Buffalo Bore's ammo. It will definitely wear out your hand and wallet before the gun!
I carry Hornady CD +P a lot. It is just barely hotter than their NON +P.
ggibson511960
Member
Why??
A better question would be why use +P ammunition. A list of pertinent questions: Does it achieve meaningful increase in velocity from a 2 in. barrel? Are the terminal ballistics improved? Is accuracy increased? Does increased recoil, muzzle blast and flash render the snub less controllable?
If all we had available was rhino rolling +P .38 Spl. loads, a rollout of reduced power loads with well designed bullets would be a breakthrough. In today's climate we are strive for ever higher velocity. I would welcome velocity and pressure information, but that would minimize the importance of the marketing department.
Better to hit something with a target or standard load than miss with a +P.
A better question would be why use +P ammunition. A list of pertinent questions: Does it achieve meaningful increase in velocity from a 2 in. barrel? Are the terminal ballistics improved? Is accuracy increased? Does increased recoil, muzzle blast and flash render the snub less controllable?
If all we had available was rhino rolling +P .38 Spl. loads, a rollout of reduced power loads with well designed bullets would be a breakthrough. In today's climate we are strive for ever higher velocity. I would welcome velocity and pressure information, but that would minimize the importance of the marketing department.
Better to hit something with a target or standard load than miss with a +P.
It IS, however, loaded to a higher price-------which was the whole idea of it.
It went like this: "What can we do increase the margin on this ammo?"
Reducing the cost by packaging it in Zip Lock bags was rejected pretty much right off the bat because it would be too difficult to confirm the count, and someone might get 52 or 53 rounds. Someone suggested weighing the bags, but that got shot down because of increased labor costs caused by hiring folks that could read a scale; and so it went. Finally someone said, "Remember that old saying about selling the sizzle instead of the steak? That's the answer----tell 'em it's got more bounce to the ounce------they'll never know the difference!"
And if there's any doubt about that at all, I offer the incessant questions about sizzle, and bounce appearing on this forum----or any other similar.
NOW-------------if you want to talk about some really hot rod .38 Specials, look up the ammunition made for the pre-war 38/44 Heavy Duty. THAT was some rompin' stompin' SPECIAL .38 Specials. You ask if you could shoot THOSE in your regular, everyday J or K frame; you're going to get some hemmin' and hawin'---- they say you can but they don't recommend it and they don't want to hear about how your dog still hasn't come home.
Ralph Tremaine
My wife and I were married in 1969. I'm thinking we're now "vintage". The +P however, is draining from both of us.
OP
1911haulic
Member
Thanks for the information, as to why, I have more +p ammo than 38 SPL.
I have one standard.
If I want higher horse power than .38 Special, I pull out a .357.
Why beat up a tool that was made for a specific job?
If I want higher horse power than .38 Special, I pull out a .357.
Why beat up a tool that was made for a specific job?
JWM
Member
I have two model 36's: manufactured 1971 & 1974. On average, they get 50-100 rounds of factory Winchester 125 JHP, +P, per year. That is sufficient to maintain proficiency with my carry load. The rest of the year, I practice with standard pressure ammo.
Any steel framed S&W 38 special with a model number is good to go with +P.
What does that mean?
Shooting over pressure loads in a gun will eventually stretch the frame. You might get away with shooting some. You sure as heck are not "good to go" with +P in a std .38 SPC. Your aren't going to blow the gun up, but you will eventually ruin it. "Shoot it loose."
At what round count is unknown.
Model46
Member
I carry a J frame .38 religiously, rotating between a model 37, 49, and 60. I feed all of them standard pressure .38 specials and do not feel that I am undergunned. I wouldn't consider using +P rounds in them. As others have said it's just not worth beating up the gun. If you feel that you need more power, invest in a .357.
Pretty well documented they are not over pressure loads. I have a 1973 vintage Chiefs Special I have 1000+ plus pee loads through. Nothing loose or stretched. We just recently referenced the test of 1000+ plus pee loads through a Model 12, an airweight gun, with no ill effects. At least two members here in the last ten years have chronographed a variety of plus pee loads, averaging at most 900 fps from a 4 inch barrel, which doesn't indicate high pressure.
Plus pee is nothing more than a marketing gimmick. They ain't going to hurt your gun, just your billfold.
I have a 60, 36, and 38, all 70's-80's era j-frames. +P is safe in all, but +P is not fun in a j-frame. I also have a 637 and a 60-15 357, and +P is still a thump in them.
I bought a new 37 in 1972.
Biggest mistake I made was letting my stepson and wife shot it with plus Ps. Next week I bought a 4" model 34 for them to shoot. I had no problem with plus Ps for me
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Biggest mistake I made was letting my stepson and wife shot it with plus Ps. Next week I bought a 4" model 34 for them to shoot. I had no problem with plus Ps for me
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Jack Flash
Member
So the +Ps your wife and stepson found objectionable were from the 1972-era? Possibly Super-Vels? If so, those were a whole different animal.
No. They weren't Super Vels.
I do know a Texas highway patrolman that shot a guy running at him with a chain with Super Vel.
Knocked him down but didn't penetrate. Bad load.
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I do know a Texas highway patrolman that shot a guy running at him with a chain with Super Vel.
Knocked him down but didn't penetrate. Bad load.
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Doug M.
Member
^ Which means that the effect was psychological, not physical.
J frames have sub-optimal ergonomics as a function of being so small. I found mine unpleasant to shoot with anything but standard velocity ammo. Load it with target wadcutters, and carry standard SWC for reloading, and you will be doing pretty well.
BTW, more than once I have seen old ads that show the both S&W and Colt considered 38-44 loads to be safe in far more than larger frame platforms.
J frames have sub-optimal ergonomics as a function of being so small. I found mine unpleasant to shoot with anything but standard velocity ammo. Load it with target wadcutters, and carry standard SWC for reloading, and you will be doing pretty well.
BTW, more than once I have seen old ads that show the both S&W and Colt considered 38-44 loads to be safe in far more than larger frame platforms.
Asking about what ammunition to use in the middle of this panic is largely hypothetical.
J-Frame revolvers, especially ones with curved banana grips, are notoriously hard to control and it gets worse as the ammo gets hotter. With the short barrel J-Frame you will not much improvement in velocity and expansion of JHP's is iffy at best. My personal choice is what ammo can I shoot rapidly and accurately especially with one hand and ignore the hype about bullet type and velocity claims.
Personally I think J-Frame snubby revolvers in 38 Spl. is a poor choice but run with whatever you like.
J-Frame revolvers, especially ones with curved banana grips, are notoriously hard to control and it gets worse as the ammo gets hotter. With the short barrel J-Frame you will not much improvement in velocity and expansion of JHP's is iffy at best. My personal choice is what ammo can I shoot rapidly and accurately especially with one hand and ignore the hype about bullet type and velocity claims.
Personally I think J-Frame snubby revolvers in 38 Spl. is a poor choice but run with whatever you like.
Doesn't that carry the caveat that the revolver be all steel construction? Today's +P ammo isn't much stronger than today's standard round, but the boutique rounds are TOUGH and I'd hesitate to put a steady diet through my model 38 airweight. Not that it's going to 'blow it up' but it would wear prematurely.
Dan Carey
Member
Don't feed it a steady diet of +P ammo. But, with occasional use, your hand will suffer more damage than the gun....
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