.38 vs .357 for stopping power...

[tomrkba]

Everyone has a time where they doubt their carry gun. Every gun will break or develop some sort of problem. Revolvers are not immune. Jams do not automatically mean there is a mechanical problem with the gun.

I found part of the solution is to have at least two copies of my primary carry gun. If one has some problems, then I move to the secondary gun. I try to diagnose and fix the problem myself (Glocks are very easy to work on and $40 in random spare parts can fix most common problems). I then test it, but don't do 500 or 1000 rounds.

Proper maintenance is necessary. Determine your gun's maintenance schedule, buy the parts, and stick to it.

Regardless, skill in remediating malfunctions is essential. Any gun can jam at any time, regardless of mechanical status or your confidence in it. You need to be able to assess and handle it quickly.

 

[DR505]

I did get involved in testing my reloads in clean wet sand and in gallon water jugs. You may want to do that to see which load may preform better over the other.

I've never been attacked by sand or water jugs!

This thread has gotten a lot of mileage for having been started in March of 2010.

 

[shawn mccarver]

Hello,

I'm on the fence about whether or not to stay with my Model 457 .45ACP as a carry gun...which even as a compact 3 1/2" 7 shot semi-auto, is still a serious hunk of steel to carry on a belt unless its hanging in the shoulder holster I made for it.

Currently the above mentioned gun is on its way to S&W for a repair since it was not functioning correctly 100% of the time.

And, I'm wondering if I should just return to "keep it simple" and get a carry revolver. If I stumble on a .44 special Model 696, there would be no question. I made a compact slide holster for this gun for a man and basically fell in love with the gun while I had it in my possession.

But, if I go to a revolver, I'm likely to go to either a .357 Model 65 or a .38 Model 64 with a 3 inch barrel. I just located a 65-5 in a pawn shop for $430. And so, the question comes up:

In the hopefully not going to happen but never-the less could happen one day scenario, if you hit an assailant center mass ONE TIME with either a .38 JHP or a .357 JHP will you get a significant difference in stopping power from the .357...or, will the .38 do the job just fine?

BTW...are both the Model 64 and 65 +P guns?

Thanks!

Any .357 is by definition a +P gun because any 38 Special can be fired from a .357 Magnum.

The .357 Magnum will, with proper loads (125 grain JHP), give much greater (94% versus 80% if you go in for the "stopping power" charts and tables created by the experts in the field.

That said, the 125 grain full power Magnum should really only be used sparingly (sight-in and occasional qualification) with 38 Special being used for almost all shooting in K frames for reasons discussed in other threads.

There are other reasons not to use full power Magnum ammo - blast and flash (unless you buy LE loads which generally use low flash powder), follow up shots a little slower due to recoil, etc., etc.

Personally, it is still hard to beat the .45 ACP for stopping power, recoil control, follow-up shots, etc.

Everyone has his or her pet load and many will talk about how this or that is "as good as" the .45 or the .357. That ought to tell you something right there.

Almost no one who has studied the problem seriously believes that a 9mm or 38 Special is better than a .45 or .357 Magnum. The best you get is that "with proper loads" it is "almost as good." "Almost" is a relative thing.

Since I don't expect to convince anyone of anything, I will just say that a good compromise is a .40 S&W with a 13 to 15 round magazine. Same size and weight as your heavy Model 457, more shots and stopping power better than 9mm and 38 Special, but not as good as .45 ACP.

The .40 caliber auto holds more than twice as many rounds as a 3 inch 38 Special or .357 Magnum K frame in the same size package that many feel is easier to conceal because it is nice and flat, and the M&P and equivalent Glock seem to fit most hands, have triggers that are easier to manage and the ammo is less expensive than 38 Special or .357 Magnum ammo.

Good luck.

 

[KEN L]

Buy a .357 handgun. Then experiment and decide which load is best for you. I personally have a model 65 3" and highly recommend it as the platform you seek. The .38 Spl +P does a wonderful job. The .357 magnum does it better. The choice is really up to YOU. Good Luck and have fun!

 

[DonD]

Lots of answers here, but this is fact, out of a 2 inch barrel a 357 can not generate any more power than a 38+p. it's proven and written.

What you say is not a fact by any means. Look at any manufacturers ballistics tables and see you're wrong.

A case in point, Buffalo Bore ammo which lists ballistics in actual guns not laboratory test barrels. Buffalo Bore ammo is about as hot as it gets. Didn't find exact comparisons but what I list certainly shows a serious edge for the .357.

BB 158gr +P .38 Special, S&W 340PD 1 7/8" barrel; 989 fps/343 ft lbs
BB 125 gr .357, S&W M66, 2.5" barrel,1448 fps/582 ft lbs. That's a mere 70% edge in energy. Trivial, hardly.

Not very close is it? My 6" Ruger GP100 clocks 1592 fps/889 ft lbs with BBs 158gr JHP over an Oehler 35 chrono, not even in the same universe as any .38 Special.

The win goes to the .357 no matter what. More blast and recoil, of course. Choose what you want. Don

 

[TexasRider]

Wow. Are those measured in your gun Don ? That 125 at 1450 fps in a 2.5 barrel has to be scorching ! I am just curious. Thanks for your info.

 

[TexasRider]

Not anything startling new to the thread, but I had just read some ballistic information compiled from coroners reports, the FBI, and other police agencies on verifiable shootings.

The 357 had somewhere around 96% of one hit stops. It also had the most data trail, with the 45 and 38 behind that. So it is effective no doubt.

The 9mm had good data too dont kid yourself, it is just that it had more hits. The authors were referring to the facts that when they see a gunshot in the ER, or morgue, that when they see mutiple projectiles on the scans they think 9mm first. However, sometimes it is not the case as they were looking at bullets that had separations .

The 44 Magnum had a high percentage as you might expect. It just did not have as much data from these reports. They did point out that it has an extremely high stopping rate for almost any hit.

There was mortality work too. While I dont remember the exacts, it is fair to say that many of the subjects in these recorded shootings died. Whether that was instantly or at a later time. They also concluded that many of these shootings were at close range. As the distance increased the wounds decreased as did the mortality. Just what you would expect in handgun shootings.

The 380 had a very high mortality rate BTW. It also had more one hit stops than I would have expected but I dont remember exactly what it was. A deputy here told me once that a couple of Medical Examiners here that have seen enough shootings to know carry a 380. I realize they are not primary LEOs either and would have many on the scene when they arrive. So it is a trade on easy carry in my opinion. But nonetheless it says something.

Keep in mind that this was for hits. Not for shots fired. It did not discriminate a hit on the first shot versus a hit on the 10th shot.

One other item I will add is that at some years ago my car was robbed and my 357 was stolen. When I got a new gun, I purschased a new Colt 1911 Government Model in 45 ACP.

When I showed my new Colt to my Dad who had been a US Marine Corps Sgt he frowned and said " That will get you killed!" I was of course thinking he was going to say "Yep, that is the best."

Some years after that he and my uncle told me of point blank range hits in Korea with the 45 that did not stop the enemy. And worse of finding dead guys with jammed 45s and ammo still in the mag. I realize these battle conditions were extreme , and those military 1911's might not be in the best shape. But the stories were real experience. A 1911 or a 45 ACP for that matter was not anywhere close to the top of those USMC Sgts weapons list.

 

[Capt Crunch]

If it's 38 vs 357, I just always think it's better to do with the 357 purely because of the fact that it gives you more options (38 or 357). On average you're not going to spend that much more for the 357. I mean if you have to just tell yourself you buying a really expensive 38 and load it with 38s if you want. I just thinking having options is always better than not.

 

[BigBill]

BTW; I've carried the 44mags for most of my ccw life. I been the full gamit between the 357mag, the 44mag and the 45acp at times. Right now my ccw pistol is a used czech CZ82 in 9mm mak with two 12rd mags. When i'm not packing the CZ82 its my new S&W Model 58 in 41mag with its 4" barrel. I do like to switch ccw guns often juust to give them a breath of fresh air. One of my all time favorites is a ruger police service six in 357mag with a 2 3/4" barrel.

When i'm out at night fishing its my cz82 in 9mm mak. Now out in the wilds of VT in the green mountains national forest its nothing smaller than my 357mag or bigger.

Overall its all about the first shot placement.

 

[hotrod150]

It seems to me that given appropriate bullet terminal performance, "stopping power" depends on three things: bullet diameter and weight, bullet velocity, and (most importantly) bullet placement. I think a 38 spl "FBI load" has enough of #1 & #2 if the shooter provides #3. I think that a 357 will proably kill someone deader than will a 38 spl, but just plain dead is good enough.
I do think that most people who buy light and/or short-barrelled 357's shoot a box or so of magnum loads, then buy and carry 38 +P's. In that case, the "357" stamped on the barrel may give you a warm & fuzzy feeling but it doesn't really do much else.

 

[DonD]

Wow. Are those measured in your gun Don ? That 125 at 1450 fps in a 2.5 barrel has to be scorching ! I am just curious. Thanks for your info.

No, but the BB 158 gr clocks 1320 fps out of my 3" Ruger SP101. That's 611 ft lbs. Don

 

[DonD]

It seems to me that given appropriate bullet terminal performance, "stopping power" depends on three things: bullet diameter and weight, bullet velocity, and (most importantly) bullet placement. I think a 38 spl "FBI load" has enough of #1 & #2 if the shooter provides #3. I think that a 357 will proably kill someone deader than will a 38 spl, but just plain dead is good enough.

Well....there is so much more of bullet velocity than with the 38, there HAS to be an advantage for the .357. 50-70% more energy has to result in more tissue disruption. If energy didn't matter, we'd still be hunting elk with lever action 44-40s and no one in their right mind would suggest that. Don

 

[Edmo]

From what I understand, the wounding effect of a bullet as it produces the temporary wound cavity really increases significantly at impact velocities of over 2,000 fps. This is why, as the velocities increase above 2,000 fps, a rifle bullet impact is so much more dramatic than slower handgun rounds. Why 2,000 fps? It is related to the elasticity of flesh and the inability to cope with the rapid expansion caused by the higher velocities. Below 2,000 fps, flesh can somewhat accommodate the stretching rates as to not produce as much bruising, tearing, and general tissue damage in the temporary wound cavity as would be imparted by a higher velocity round.

This means that a slower velocity round has to rely much more on the damage of the permanent wound channel to stop or incapacitate a person. So one could say with a handgun round you have a smaller tunnel of damage than a rifle round and therefore need to have more accurate placement to achieve effectiveness.

Now to 38 Special vs 357 Magnum. Although the 357 does generate more velocity and energy, both rounds are well below 2,000 fps. Shot placement is key and the biggest difference, in my opinion, is how much increased diameter can be achieved from mushrooming at the slightly higher impact velocities of the 357. Beyond that, you are only increasing recoil and blast.

Is the impact of a round at 357 velocities going to do more damage than the same round at 38 velocities? I think anyone who says "no" would be missing the bigger picture of energy transfer. However, I don't think it is as significant as we might think and again we get back to shot placement as a predominant factor in the elusive "stopping power" effect.

YMMV & IMHO…

Edmo

 

[scooot]

686

)thinking of buying a s&w 686 with 4or 6 inch barrel for target practice & home protection what do you think

 

[hotrod150]

Well....there is so much more of bullet velocity than with the 38, there HAS to be an advantage for the .357. 50-70% more energy has to result in more tissue disruption. If energy didn't matter, we'd still be hunting elk with lever action 44-40s and no one in their right mind would suggest that. Don

1) Most folks are not gonna shoot full-house magnum loads out of their lightweight j-frame 357 more than once. Their 357 is that in name only if it is gonna be used to shoot 38's.
2) Most folks probably won't do very well with follow-up shots if they do use full magnum loads. The lighter recoil of a 38 equals more & better hits.
3) At some point, enough is enough. That's why we hunt elk with a 30-06 or 7mm mag-- not a 378 458 or 577 NE.
To me, a snub 38 is about the perfect compromise between power, concealabilty, and shootability. That's why the 442/642 series os so popular. I don't like excessive recoil or muzzle blast, both of which you get plenty of when shooting 357 out of a 2" j-frame. if that doesn't bother you, go for it. I do think that a 4" K or L frame 357 is about the most versatile all-around handgun there is- but I don't wanna pack one around tucked inside my britches. That's where the little j-frame 38 shines.