3953 Tactical 9 trigger question

ohio

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I'm spending some of my time in retirement working at a local shooting and training center. One of the pistols we have for sale is a S&W 3953 Tactical 9, NIB. When checking the reset on this pistol I found that it has a "false" reset, where the trigger cannot be engaged , followed by a longer reset which allows the trigger to function and the hammer to fall. The magazine is inserted when checking the reset. I see this as a major safety issue.

Is this normal, or is there a problem with this pistol? I have searched the WEB and cannot find any reference to this condition, and all the reviews claim the 3953 has a great trigger (which this one does not have).

Any feedback you can provide is appreciated.
 
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reset

This scenario you describe will not happen during firing.

When you "dry fire" the pistol, the hammer stays fully forward during trigger reset, instead of being cocked by the slide cycle....which results in this weird skip you describe when the trigger is not allowed to reset fully.

If the full trigger reset is interrupted at the first click(SA bevel/step), a trigger pull at this spot will result in the pickup notch in the drawbar slipping off of this very short SA step. If the trigger is allowed to fully reset, the drawbar reaches the pick up notch, and a resulting trigger pull at this point will result in a "normal" DA cycle of the hammer. Yes, in the dry firing scenario you are describing, this is normal.
 
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Don't try to shoot a S&W 3rd gen DAO pistol looking for a non-existent "early mechanical reset" condition like some people seem to prefer to do with a TDA (DA/SA) pistol that has both DA & SA trigger modes, or a DAO-ish/striker-fired pistol in which the trigger/sear mechanically recovers enough to be mechanically ready for a subsequent shot to be fired before the trigger may have fully returned forward.

Treat it like a DA/DAO revolver. The trigger has to fully recover for mechanical readiness to occur in order to be ready another shot.

Short-stroking a 3rd gen DAO pistol would be like short-stroking the DA trigger of a revolver, by trying to pull the trigger prematurely (mechanically), before it's recovered forward.

FWIW, the "original" and the New Style DAO 3rd gen's differ in the amount of DAO hammer "staging" that has to occur, due to the difference of the DAO parts. The newer models have longer trigger pulls because they have to move the hammer farther for release after it's been "located" (staged, if you'd rather) to a shorter distance by the DAO sear (after the slide cycles).

This design change does, however, allow for the standard length TDA slides and frames to be used/converted for DAO, unlike the older DAO guns requiring their own (longer) frames and slides, because the longer slides were needed to cover the DAO hammers (which were located further to the rear in their arc).

Also, the old style (machined) and new style (MIM) DAO parts MUST NOT be mixed in the same gun. They won't work together. There were some other minor changes in the DAO guns over time, too.
 
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This scenario you describe will not happen during firing.

When you "dry fire" the pistol, the hammer stays fully forward during trigger reset, instead of being cocked by the slide cycle....which results in this weird skip you describe when the trigger is not allowed to reset fully.

If the full trigger reset is interrupted at the first click(SA bevel/step), a trigger pull at this spot will result in the pickup notch in the drawbar slipping off of this very short SA step. If the trigger is allowed to fully reset, the drawbar reaches the pick up notch, and a resulting trigger pull at this point will result in a "normal" DA cycle of the hammer. Yes, in the dry firing
scenario you are describing, this is normal.

Actually, to check reset I rack the slide to set the trigger, then fully pull the trigger (which if loaded the gun would fire),I hold the trigger back and rack the slide again (as would happened when the slide is cycled by firing the gun). At this point I slowly let the trigger out to reset and at the first "click" the trigger will not pull to release the hammer. This is the false reset I refer to. Letting the trigger out further will cause a second "click" and then allow the hammer to fall.

In this method the pistol would not know if you are dry firing or actually firing a round because the slide is cycled with the trigger fully pulled. I'm really confused by this and think the pistol has a defective trigger system.
 
If you are confused about proper reset, read post 3 again.

"Short-stroking a 3rd gen DAO pistol would be like short-stroking the DA trigger of a revolver, by trying to pull the trigger prematurely (mechanically)"

and

"the trigger has to fully recover....."
 
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Ok, I'm starting to understand. So basically you have to just fully release the trigger which on the pistol we have is ALL the way out. That's a really long reset.

In trying to find an answer to my question before posting on this forum I read a lot of reviews exclaiming how great the triggers are on the 3953, but with the long reset and that intermediate "false" reset that's difficult to understand. I'm not trying to slam the pistol because it looks to be a very well made pistol typical of S&W quality, but that trigger is just not to the standard of the rest of the pistol.

Thanks for the responses, but I personally see the trigger as a major fault on an otherwise nice pistol.
 
I'm confused as well. So there is no short (or medium) trigger reset on the newer 3953? The only trigger reset is to allow the trigger to move fully forward like the initial 1st trigger pull? That's kind of a bummer.
 
You have to consider the reason for the development of the S&W DAO guns.

In my first armorer class, back in the 90's, when it came to the DAO part of the class we were told that the company had originally designed the guns for LE. That was back in the days when many LE agencies were still transitioning from DA revolvers to pistols, and there was a demand for revolver-like triggers on semiauto duty pistols.

While the traditional double action (TDA) pistols were DA for the initial shot, and SA for the subsequent shots (unless they were decocked back into DA), the DAO guns were designed to have a full DA trigger stroke for each and every trigger press. They were revolver-like for each trigger press.

You don't "partially" release a DA revolver trigger, you fully release it so the trigger fully recovers and the pistol is mechanically ready for another DA stroke. In other words, you let the DA trigger fully recover for each and every DA shot.

In the TDA guns, after the initial DA trigger press the hammer remains cocked, which means there's a shorter SA trigger press next up for the subsequent shot. The design allows for a very short trigger/sear mechanical "reset" for the subsequent SA trigger mode (until the gun is decocked, and then you're back to the longer and heavier initial DA trigger mode).

Now, the DA trigger of the original DAO guns were pretty amazing for what they were, meaning DA only. Lighter, smoother and shorter than a S&W revolver DA trigger. Nice.

The newer DAO design (made for the TSW series), was made to be used with the standard shorter TDA slide, which couldn't cover the new style DAO hammer as much as the older DAO slide did, so it resulted in the DAO hammer not being "staged" ("located" is the S&W term) as far to the rear when the slide had been cycled. This meant a longer DA trigger pull to retract and release the DAO hammer.

The people who were interested in the DAO guns often preferred the shorter DAO triggers of the older guns ... but the newer DAO design allowed an agency to transition from TDA to DAO, if that's what they wanted, without having to buy new complete pistols. Their armorers could change out the TDA parts to the new style DAO parts and then have DAO guns ... or vice-versa, if they changed their minds.

Typically, shooters who were interested in DAO guns understood what they were getting, meaning DAO and no SA trigger mode, and the private owners who wanted DA/SA capable guns could still buy the TDA models, and get that typical short & fast SA trigger "reset".

S&W pistol enthusiasts didn't buy the DAO guns for SA trigger "short trigger reset", but for the DAO trigger operation. If they wanted a pistol with a SA trigger mode, with it's short & fast "reset", they bought the TDA guns.

It's kind of like someone buying a 1911 and then complaining it doesn't have a DA trigger (unless you bought one of the seldom seen Colt Double Eagles ;) ).

It pays to understand how the different models are designed to operate, and then buying the design that interests you. ;) Know what you want, and then buy a gun designed and built that way.

Now, in the SIG model line over the years you could get a DAO (built for LE sales); a TDA model (DA/SA), which also has the newer SRT (Short Reset Trigger for SA mode) option available; or the Enhanced Double Action (also called the DAK), which has 2 different DAO trigger "resets", meaning 2 different lengths of trigger pull (after the initial full length trigger pull to fire the gun). In these days with the variety of newer DAO/DAO-like pistols being designed and produced, it can become rather confusing, granted.
 
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De nada.

That was quick and dirty version. There's a lot more to the DAO models, and the differences between them, and that's just the stuff I've picked up over the years from armorer recerts. Just imagine the huge amount of info about them that I've not learned.

I've never been particularly fond of them, nor ever desired to own one, so I've not delved into them any more deeply than the cursory stuff they put out in the armorer classes (and I've no doubt forgotten some of that stuff over time, since I've never had to actually tear into one).
 
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DAO options

Best summary of the Smith (& Sig) DAOs I've ever seen! Thank you. Within this context is it possible to clarify the issue of "restrike capability" for the various forms of DAO on these hammer style guns.
 

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