3rd Gen Obsolete?
- Thread starter ColColt
- Start date
gtoppcop
Member
Just like Col Colt says, this has been a very good post to read and in my case re-read.
I've had good luck with three parts outlets:
--Numrich (Gun Parts Corp)
--Midway USA (under S&W Auto Pistols [parts that fit multiple models])
--Brownells
I just picked up a 1989-vintage 5906 (old cop's gun) with the square trigger guard and Adjustable sights. I looked in MidwayUSA's website and found many parts were on the shelf.
When I took it apart, I noticed that the recoil spring guide's spring-loaded head is able to turn. Looks like I'll buy the $22 part at MidwayUSA.
The parts are out there. Remember too that a good portion of the common parts for the 5906 (most produced 3rd Gen?) will go onto a 4000/3900/4500/6900-series.
I appreciate the long replies by the Armorers. I have detail-stripped my 4566/4003 to clean them in a hot bath of water and Dial anti-bacterial soap (it does work!). I got them back together without any trouble.
Trouble shooting and diagnosing their issues is something entirely different. I defer the 'hard' stuff to my S&W trained SoCal gunsmith (b. burris handle on the Forum).
One thing that I have learned over the years is to use the Bic pens (with the removable top) to test the firing pin and/or ensuring that the decocker/safety works (the pen flies out of the barrel under FIRE and doesn't move under SAFE/hammer drop).
I must confess that my 4003TSW's (#1 of 2) recent trip to S&W was a wonderful experience. In fact, I have sent the other 4003TSW and 'Mama Bear's' 3914 to them. The 5906 (after she's de-loused and de-horned) will go back to Springfield for her 100K mile rebuild. Now if I could just find another Ed Brown competition safety for the 9mm/40-series guns!
If you want a 5906 (the Volvo 240 of 9mms), go to Buds, Robertsons Trading Post and/or CDNN. They're going for $300-350 depending on shape. GREAT gun!!!
Just my $.02
I've had good luck with three parts outlets:
--Numrich (Gun Parts Corp)
--Midway USA (under S&W Auto Pistols [parts that fit multiple models])
--Brownells
I just picked up a 1989-vintage 5906 (old cop's gun) with the square trigger guard and Adjustable sights. I looked in MidwayUSA's website and found many parts were on the shelf.
When I took it apart, I noticed that the recoil spring guide's spring-loaded head is able to turn. Looks like I'll buy the $22 part at MidwayUSA.
The parts are out there. Remember too that a good portion of the common parts for the 5906 (most produced 3rd Gen?) will go onto a 4000/3900/4500/6900-series.
I appreciate the long replies by the Armorers. I have detail-stripped my 4566/4003 to clean them in a hot bath of water and Dial anti-bacterial soap (it does work!). I got them back together without any trouble.
Trouble shooting and diagnosing their issues is something entirely different. I defer the 'hard' stuff to my S&W trained SoCal gunsmith (b. burris handle on the Forum).
One thing that I have learned over the years is to use the Bic pens (with the removable top) to test the firing pin and/or ensuring that the decocker/safety works (the pen flies out of the barrel under FIRE and doesn't move under SAFE/hammer drop).
I must confess that my 4003TSW's (#1 of 2) recent trip to S&W was a wonderful experience. In fact, I have sent the other 4003TSW and 'Mama Bear's' 3914 to them. The 5906 (after she's de-loused and de-horned) will go back to Springfield for her 100K mile rebuild. Now if I could just find another Ed Brown competition safety for the 9mm/40-series guns!
If you want a 5906 (the Volvo 240 of 9mms), go to Buds, Robertsons Trading Post and/or CDNN. They're going for $300-350 depending on shape. GREAT gun!!!
Just my $.02
Fastbolt
Member
Can the mag release spring be replaced without a great deal of disassembly? I don't think I'll get into trying to replace the extractor spring.
Yes. The nut & spring.
Ideally, it involves removing the grips if the mag catch body is being removed (and so the frame can be flat against a hard work surface, to keep the right end of the mag catch body flat while the nut is being installed and adjusted for depth).
However, I've found that with a 3rd gen with factory grips, if you're only replacing the nut and/or spring, putting the gun on its right side and placing a nickel underneath the right end of the mag catch (as a 'spacer' beneath the mag catch) will let you depress the plunger and unscrew the nut (button) ... and then replace them with one or both new ones.
Very good-thanks. I don't know if it will help or not but my 4516-1 seems to be a little reluctant to receive mags fully and you have to rap the bottom to get it to click and stay put. Not knowing the age of this pistol and after encountering that problem I first thought of the spring and since I have one thought of just replacing it. Maybe as 18DAI mentioned, it may be the nature of the compacts. Not having a compact before I don't know. The 4506 mag will fit nicely and click but of course is about 3/4" too long.
Franciscomv
Member
- Joined
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FM made some pretty good guns back in the day. Both HPs and 1911s. Current production pistols aren't very nicely finished, but they work well and are quite affordable.
German gun companies don't sell weapons to Argentina, I'm not sure why but I think it has to do with some sort of government policy (we're probably considered an unstable country).
Any SIGs or Walthers we get come from the US. The last HK shipment we got was back in the '90s, they're very sought after and fetch premium prices.
Fastbolt
Member
Both of my 4513TSW's (original and a new production issued model) require the magazines receiving a firm whack in order to properly seat them. Ditto my 3913, CS9, CS45, 4013TSW and a number of my other makes of pistols. Once they become too easy to insert (with the slide forward) I'd start to wonder whether the mag springs weren't approaching the far end of their useful service life.
The mags I have won't seat with the slide open and mags empty without a whack. That just doesn't seem quite right to me. It's like the height of the plastic base plates are too high and should be shortened about 1/16" or thereabout so the mag will go further up and latch.
Catshooter
Member
FB, I have seen the same thing with dirty weapons. It boggles my tiny little mind that it can happen, but it sure does.
I agree Col, that doesn't sound right. A full mag against a closed slide should give some good resistence.
Take the slide off and see if that changes how the mags feel during seating.
Cat
I agree Col, that doesn't sound right. A full mag against a closed slide should give some good resistence.
Take the slide off and see if that changes how the mags feel during seating.
Cat
Fastbolt
Member
Sometimes the ejector lands on the left side of a magazine in such a way that it gives some pressure. (Check the ejector for a normal appearance, meaning not bent or broken, as well as normal movement.)
I'll sometimes have an occasional magazine not quick "click" into the mag well under a locked back slide (meaning no slide resistance) without a little extra pressure. There's a bit of a potential tolerance stack condition that can occur when you consider the interaction of the involved parts ... mag body, mag butt plate, window cutout in mag, mag catch body, frame cut for mag catch body. Especially when you consider the plastic butt plate and how its grooves may slip onto any particular mag body lips.
When I load a magazine I make sure I either press it up into place (when the slide is locked back), or I give a more solid push/whack (slide locked forward). I wouldn't get too "aggressive" and try to forcefully shove the mag up through the grip frame and out the ejection port when the slide is locked back, though, as its possible to exert excessive pressure up against the bottom of the ejector. I watched one guy eventually break off his ejector doing that one day.
I'll sometimes have an occasional magazine not quick "click" into the mag well under a locked back slide (meaning no slide resistance) without a little extra pressure. There's a bit of a potential tolerance stack condition that can occur when you consider the interaction of the involved parts ... mag body, mag butt plate, window cutout in mag, mag catch body, frame cut for mag catch body. Especially when you consider the plastic butt plate and how its grooves may slip onto any particular mag body lips.
When I load a magazine I make sure I either press it up into place (when the slide is locked back), or I give a more solid push/whack (slide locked forward). I wouldn't get too "aggressive" and try to forcefully shove the mag up through the grip frame and out the ejection port when the slide is locked back, though, as its possible to exert excessive pressure up against the bottom of the ejector. I watched one guy eventually break off his ejector doing that one day.
The ejector looks fine-just like the one in my 4506. That one doesn't behave the way this one does in that you will hear a distinct click with the slide closed when inserting the mag and no need to whack the bottom of the mag.
It was very easy to insert the mag with the slide retracted and you could hear/feel the click...not so with the slide forward. I have four mags with the 4516-1 and they all do that.
It was very easy to insert the mag with the slide retracted and you could hear/feel the click...not so with the slide forward. I have four mags with the 4516-1 and they all do that.
Just a little update. I took the 4516-1 out for a first time range visit today and it was as expected. I went though some WWB, GDGHP's(some factory, some my reloads of 7.8 gr of HS-6) and nary a bobble with three mags. I had to take the 4506 as well to keep it company and shot about an equal amount through it. As usual, no problems with it either.
However, I had loaded about 50 lead round nose bullets that have an ogive pretty much like standard hard ball and the same amount of the H&G #68 and it seems the 4516-1 didn't like them at all. After about 2-3 shots I had a FTRTB. I retrieved the round from the chamber and put it in my pocket after looking it over. I experienced the same thing when I put the mag back in and racked the slide. Both times the slide liked about 1/4" going into battery. This also happened with the SWC's. I was a bit baffled. Upon returning home I measured the OAL of both rounds and they always fed in other pistols. Two of the rounds I had in my pocket were 1.255". WWB usually goes about 1.260-1.265" so that didn't make sense. The two that gave a problem(and there were a few others) wouldn't go into the chamber after I took the slide and barrel off. I dropped them into the chamber and they didn't go without just a little push. I checked out each round before today with my case gauge just to be sure if any problem arouse I could eliminate ammo. Something went awry somewhere as if it fit the case gauge, it should have fit the chamber.
At any rate, I'm still chewing on this. I stopped trying to shoot the lead bullets and went back to WWB and shot five more mags with no problems.It's hard to believe it handled the GDHP and some HST's without a problem yet something didn't quite work out with the lead bullets.
However, I had loaded about 50 lead round nose bullets that have an ogive pretty much like standard hard ball and the same amount of the H&G #68 and it seems the 4516-1 didn't like them at all. After about 2-3 shots I had a FTRTB. I retrieved the round from the chamber and put it in my pocket after looking it over. I experienced the same thing when I put the mag back in and racked the slide. Both times the slide liked about 1/4" going into battery. This also happened with the SWC's. I was a bit baffled. Upon returning home I measured the OAL of both rounds and they always fed in other pistols. Two of the rounds I had in my pocket were 1.255". WWB usually goes about 1.260-1.265" so that didn't make sense. The two that gave a problem(and there were a few others) wouldn't go into the chamber after I took the slide and barrel off. I dropped them into the chamber and they didn't go without just a little push. I checked out each round before today with my case gauge just to be sure if any problem arouse I could eliminate ammo. Something went awry somewhere as if it fit the case gauge, it should have fit the chamber.
At any rate, I'm still chewing on this. I stopped trying to shoot the lead bullets and went back to WWB and shot five more mags with no problems.It's hard to believe it handled the GDHP and some HST's without a problem yet something didn't quite work out with the lead bullets.
Fastbolt
Member
Sounds like an issue with the sizing of the lead reloads. Wouldn't be the first time a "generous" case gauge disagreed with a barrel chamber that might be on the "tighter" end of the normal tolerance spec.
How old is the brass?
How old is the brass?
The case gauge gave all the go ahead and that's why I was surprised things didn't go so well. I have the bullets sized to .452"-same as for the other 45's. the brass was mixed...some new Starline and some twice fired.
Fastbolt
Member
If the rounds aren't going into the barrel chamber without resistance, just under the force of gravity (with barrel removed from slide), it would seem likely that either some of the rounds weren't sized as well as the "gauge" might think, or else you've got something stuck to the chamber wall?
Also, in an occasional older 3rd gen we used to take a "finishing" chamber reamer to lightly clean up any high spots in the chamber. This sometimes revealed high spots, too. We cleaned up a few "tight" chambers that way. Obviously, this isn't something that someone ought to attempt without some understanding of how to properly do it so damage isn't done to the chamber shoulders & barrel leade. Barrels aren't inexpensive.
Also, in an occasional older 3rd gen we used to take a "finishing" chamber reamer to lightly clean up any high spots in the chamber. This sometimes revealed high spots, too. We cleaned up a few "tight" chambers that way. Obviously, this isn't something that someone ought to attempt without some understanding of how to properly do it so damage isn't done to the chamber shoulders & barrel leade. Barrels aren't inexpensive.
I think the gauge lied to me. I distinctly remember a couple nights back taking each of the rounds and dropping them into the gauge and all but a couple dropped flush. the other two I sit aside and they didn't go today. Maybe seating the bullet about .005 deeper might help.
I distinctly remember a couple nights back taking each of the rounds and dropping them into the gauge and all but a couple dropped flush. the other two I sit aside and they didn't go today. Maybe seating the bullet about .005 deeper might help.
Fastbolt
Member
Got a local gunsmith who might take a couple of minutes to set up and turn a finishing chamber reamer in your barrel?
Catshooter
Member
Col,
Your problem is well known to those of us who reload SWC bullets in the 45 auto.
Most 45 chambers (and the Smith's are no exception) have a throat so short it might as well not exist. What that means is that if there is much more than about .020 of bullet that is bore size or bigger that protrudes from the case mouth at all it will hit the rifling.
I shoot alot of Keith's bullets in my 45s and I have to be careful with all of them on how far out the front driving band sits from the case mouth. I stick to .020 as a max and that length is trouble free in all my 45s.
Fastbolt is right (of course) that gravity is all that should be needed to get a round fully chambered in a barrel. Anything else is asking for trouble.
Hope this helps.
Cat
Your problem is well known to those of us who reload SWC bullets in the 45 auto.
Most 45 chambers (and the Smith's are no exception) have a throat so short it might as well not exist. What that means is that if there is much more than about .020 of bullet that is bore size or bigger that protrudes from the case mouth at all it will hit the rifling.
I shoot alot of Keith's bullets in my 45s and I have to be careful with all of them on how far out the front driving band sits from the case mouth. I stick to .020 as a max and that length is trouble free in all my 45s.
Fastbolt is right (of course) that gravity is all that should be needed to get a round fully chambered in a barrel. Anything else is asking for trouble.
Hope this helps.
Cat
