3rd Gen parts - I'm afraid we're on our own Gents

[peh_7]

3rd Gen Guide Rods

Having a number of 1st Gen pistols I got into 3rd Gen models because I wanted a strong 10mm other than a Glock, and had heard there were too many problems with 1911s in 10mm. Anyway, I now have a 1006 and a 4506. The part I think may be a problem is the guide rod since I can't locate either a replacement or after market version for the 5" models (Gun Parts sent me one but it was apparently for one of the shorter models so I sent it back).

Anyway, I have now come up with a design for one made of stainless steel very similar to the version I saw on another post. (http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...s/272532-5906-recoil-spring-guide-midway.html). I have used it in both pistols and it works great. I also assume if it was shortened the design could be used in the shorter models.

I could make more on a limited basis (turned on a manual lathe, one at a time) and was wondering if there would be any interest. Since I would need to purchase materials, and it takes a considerable amount of time to machine each one, I would need to get 50 to 60 dollars to make it worth my while.

Any comments would be appreciated.

 

[18DAI]

Welcome to the forum peh_7 !!

A 4506 guide rod would be most welcome. I have seen three posts looking for one over the last year. $50 to $60 would not be an unreasonable price to pay for one based on the MSRP of what parts I see for sale on websites and Ebay.

Please keep us advised here should you begin this project. Regards 18DAI

 

[Fastbolt]

A 4506 guide rod would be most welcome.

Are you in need of a 4506 guide rod assembly?

 

[18DAI]

No Fastbolt, not me. Some other members here have evidently been searching for 4506/645 guide rods with no luck. PM sent. Best regards, 18DAI

 

[Mossy Pops]

I recently added a 4553TSW to my collection of 3rd gen guns. I didn't know at the time that it used a nested pair of recoil springs that are now unavailable. It shoots fine but I would like to replace the recoil springs at some point. Wolff does not sell these. I suppose I could use the one they do sell for the 4516 in a pinch but would rather not. I called Wolff to ask whether they had any plans to expand spring support for the TSW lines or for 3rd gen guns in general and was told no. The lady I spoke to was a little testy on the phone. Maybe they are getting calls from us or maybe she was just having a bad day. Either way, I didn't get the impression that Wolff was real committed to the cause of keeping our pistols running. The lady didn't ask, but I for one would be willing to pay a premium for these springs. I definitely get the impression that a lot of other 3rd gen shooters would also pay for these increasingly hard to get items. Hope some enterprising spring maker, big or small, responds.

6/3/2014 - I called S&W customer service thinking they might have a set of the recoil springs. They didn't but the rep I talked to was quite adamant that they would be building and stocking 3rd gen parts down the road. As stated on another post, they are using all available resources to build and fulfill orders for the new stuff. It might be 18 months or longer though. The guy said he'd been there since 77 and that he loved the 3rd gens too. I believe him when he says they will be supported again down the road.

 

[ahern25]

I have four recoils springs, #20161 that are right at 8 1/4" long that I bought from Wolff a few years back. Your post got me curious and I checked them out. However, I also ordered a Pistol Service Pack, as they call it, for the 4506 and it came with all the needed springs for the 645, 745, 4506, 4526 and 4546 but, the recoil spring in that package is not the 8 1/4" that came in the #20161 package. It's more like 6 1/2" one you spoke of. I never noticed it until you mentioned it and those springs are definitely different.

The stock number on that Service Pack is 69302.

When I bought my 4506 it had a spring that must of came from a pen. So I called S&W and they sent me a new one on the package it had 201610000 markings. It was around 8 1/4 inches and a pain to install. It worked great and felt like it belonged to the gun. I then ordered the service pak from Wolff and had all the springs changed out. When I first shot it again it felt like the slide was battering the frame and just felt different. I took it apart and noticed that the recoil spring felt easy to install. So I compared it to the one sent from S&W and that's when I saw the difference in length. I switched back and forth between the tow springs and noticed that the wolff spring seemed weaker. If I didn't get the original one from smith I don't think I would have even noticed. I would have just thought I had the right spring in it. Like I said I emailed wolff and they have not replied with their findings. If anyone knows someone at Wolff maybe they can relay this message to them. I fell they are selling the wrong spring and I just don't want people to wear out a good 4506 especially when S&W is not making parts anymore. We need to make sure these guns last and don't get more battered then they need to be. Us 3rd gen folks need to stick together lol.

 

[Comrad]

So what kind of round count does it take to wear out the consumable parts? I'm an infrequent shooter but would like to be able to shoot this gun for years to come without fear of wearing it out.

 

[Poohgyrr]

We should be fine on springs for our 3rd Gen 9mm's here at home. These simply are too good not to have and use. Far as the P series Sigs, they simply don't shoot as well for me.

Heh, I'd go Ruger before Sig.

If I ever find a Commander length 45xx locally I'll likely buy it. They are that good.

 

[18DAI]

Comrad, I've got several 45XX series guns with over 5000 rounds a piece through them. No broken parts. No malfunctions at all for that matter.

Having owned dozens of 3rd gen guns I've not broken a trigger play spring either........yet. I have adjusted quite a few to eliminate the click.

I have a 910 "value line" pistol. Before I lost my handgun log book while going through a divorce and subsequent move, it had over 19,000 rounds through it. Again, no broken parts. It did develope a crack in the frame. Still safe to use according to two gunsmiths. And I used it again this weekend to teach another new shooter.

My point is, that 910 is a "value line" pistol. Not a TSW or even a "standard" production 3rd gen. So.......if the value line guns have the quality of build and service life to go 20,000 rounds - with no parts breakage..............

Buy them, shoot them, love them! If you can afford to shoot them enough to break something or wear one out, then you are wealthy enough to buy a replacement for it too. Like Dorito's, they made a bunch. Unlike Dorito's, they won't make more. Sad. Regards 18DAI

 

[1775usmarine]

Figured look at used 4506 mags on ebay and seen them go up by 20 bucks. Sure glad I got my 10 mags when they were cheap. I would love to find a spare decent barrel for just in case esp if I plan on passing down to the next generation of shooters.

 

[vigil617]

I recently added a 4553TSW to my collection of 3rd gen guns. I didn't know at the time that it used a nested pair of recoil springs that are now unavailable. It shoots fine but I would like to replace the recoil springs at some point. Wolff does not sell these. I suppose I could use the one they do sell for the 4516 in a pinch but would rather not. I called Wolff to ask whether they had any plans to expand spring support for the TSW lines or for 3rd gen guns in general and was told no. The lady I spoke to was a little testy on the phone. Maybe they are getting calls from us or maybe she was just having a bad day. Either way, I didn't get the impression that Wolff was real committed to the cause of keeping our pistols running. The lady didn't ask, but I for one would be willing to pay a premium for these springs. I definitely get the impression that a lot of other 3rd gen shooters would also pay for these increasingly hard to get items. Hope some enterprising spring maker, big or small, responds.

Mossy,

If the part numbers for your nested pair are as follows, they are the same ones spec'd for the 4516 and you should be able to use them in your 4553 TSW:

Factory spec'd nested dual counter wound spring set

pn: 108660000 outer 0.037wire x 22 coils
pn: 108670000 inner 0.032wire x 25 coils

These same springs are spec'd for 14 or so different models of compact .40 & .45 caliber pistols.


The italicized information has been provided by BMCM elsewhere regarding the 45xx series, and he's a pretty fair hand at these pistols, to understate it rather significantly.

Good luck with your springs. If you don't need any right away, keep watching the Semi-Autos section here for pending information from a spring supplier who is developing quotes on these springs right now. Hope we'll know something soon to be able to pass along.

 

[timn8er]

This thread needs sticky status so we can review all the info in it when needed!

 

[Mossy Pops]

Mossy,

If the part numbers for your nested pair are as follows, they are the same ones spec'd for the 4516 and you should be able to use them in your 4553 TSW:

Factory spec'd nested dual counter wound spring set

pn: 108660000 outer 0.037wire x 22 coils
pn: 108670000 inner 0.032wire x 25 coils

These same springs are spec'd for 14 or so different models of compact .40 & .45 caliber pistols.


The italicized information has been provided by BMCM elsewhere regarding the 45xx series, and he's a pretty fair hand at these pistols, to understate it rather significantly.

Good luck with your springs. If you don't need any right away, keep watching the Semi-Autos section here for pending information from a spring supplier who is developing quotes on these springs right now. Hope we'll know something soon to be able to pass along.

Thanks, I'll keep watching.

 

[TercGen]

Well that's not good news, especially since I'm purchasing a CS9 right now and don't think there's any aftermarket recoil springs for these.

I've got some factory ones on backorder from Midway (fingers crossed), we'll see what happens. Maybe I'll be able to snag some of the last ones.

Many thanks to BMCM for the heads up, and everyone else who has contributed here. I guess I should have been paying more attention to this situation and stocked up.

 

[tom 45]

TercGen,

I've been following BMCM on his journey to replace the recoil spring on his 4516 and it has been very interesting.
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...3665-bmcm-tested-approved-4516-2-springs.html
and
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...ls/341184-springs-binding-my-shorty-45-a.html

Along those lines I'm working on replacing the recoil springs in my CS9 and CS45. So far I have ordered the springs and am waiting to cut them and try them.
Stay tuned. When I get them done I'll post results.
So far they look like the same spring stock as the original CS spring stock.

 

[Fastbolt]

Well that's not good news, especially since I'm purchasing a CS9 right now and don't think there's any aftermarket recoil springs for these.

I recently ordered some more CS9 & CS45 factory recoil springs (from S&W). I had to wait a bit for the CS45 springs, as they were on back-order, but they arrived.

 

[TercGen]

Tom 45 - thank you for those fantastic links Sir! I had never heard of spring binding before, but now believe I've actually been experiencing it with some pistols. It's also pretty uplifting to see some solutions found, and I'll be very interested to see how your CS9/CS45 project turns out.

I recently ordered some more CS9 & CS45 factory recoil springs (from S&W). I had to wait a bit for the CS45 springs, as they were on back-order, but they arrived.

That is definitely good to hear, thanks for the report Fastbolt.

 

[rscalzo]

Frames are long gone. A repair on a handgun still owned by the original owner for a cracked frame was denied last year.

 

[rscalzo]

S&W stopped supporting the line even for a first owner. Last year they refused to replace a cracked frame on a 659. round count was maybe 2500 rounds. In the past they replaced our cracked frames with third gen frames but that's no loner possible. ^59's had less problems than the 669's which saw more than a few cracked frames.

 

[Practical]

Never said I deserve free parts that I have worn out. I said many people shoot very little and parts breakage on a gun with very low round count should be covered for free. What I DID say is there are millions of these guns out there and unless somebody steps in and makes these parts, those millions of owners are screwed. And S&W owes it to the person who paid his hard earned money for their product to continue to support them. They only stopped making these guns 5 years ago. The NYPD has thousands of officers carrying them right now.

And unless you are are professional shooter, the tires analogy is pretty thin. I have a 6906 that has less then 1000 rounds through it. If the extractor breaks, it should be replaced for free. If they made me pay then so be it, but I shouldn't have to scour the earth looking for one as if it's the Holy Grail

I don't agree. I work at a manufacturing firm and we have a 5 year warranty. If the customer buys a protection plan they can extend it. However, we only repair product we still have parts for. You cannot make parts forever and 20+ year old electronics are not available.

We keep a stock of parts but reasonably ANY company will run out of parts 10 years after a product is discontinued. When a product goes end of life, we look at the pool or users, make EOL parts purchases based on customer return history and the number of customers that purchased protection plans.

S&W likely did something like this for the TSW line. A lot of LEO users still existed, there was some production. Parts production continued and times were good for the civilian user. NOW that the EOL time period has passed MOST LEO are NOT using the guns and won't transition to new ones and the cost structures to keep support for a gun that is LOSING you money means you drop support.

They promised to warranty the gun on material defect and workmanship NOT promise to provide repairs forever. You guys who are complaining are NOT owed anything.

I have a few 3rd Generations, and I don't like it anymore than you, but it is the way the world works. NOTHING remains in production or supported forever. If you want a gun like that buy a 1911. Buy an OPEN design.

BUT you should buy a few now. That is the intent of the Microstamping and state firearm consumer safety laws to make make even 1911's unsupportable.

 

[Fastbolt]

Remember that the lifetime limited service warranty for S&W handguns wasn't in effect for commercial/private original owners until early in the 90's, meaning after the 1st & 2nd gen guns were produced.

As far as any 3rd gen guns that experienced a frame failure, owned by an original owner (or Demo/Used gun offered with the full factory warranty to the current owner)? I imagine they'd offer a M&P or SW1911 as a warranty replacement gun, depending on the value.

Even when 3rd gen guns were still in full production, they weren't keeping an inexhaustible stock of frames used in some discontinued models on hand.

Another armorer friend of mine had his original 4013 (single stack) develop a frame problem, and he was told that they no longer had any 4013 frames available, so he was offered his choice of a selection of equivalent 3rd gen guns (including TSW's) as a warranty replacement. It's not like they're going to stop scheduled production to make a single frame of a discontinued model.

After all, it's not like the gun companies keep an inexhaustible supply of discontinued versions of all models on hand in the event they need to replace a defective one at some point in the future.

 

[DesertRatAz]

This is not good news. What is S&W thinking.

 

[grumpyk35]

Seems to me if they were to start making replacment parts they could start a new bussness. S&W Replacment parts div

 

[peh_7]

Guide Rods

As mentioned in a post last month I now have the capability to make guide rods on a limited basis. They are made by hand on manual equipment (not production CNC). They are from stainless steel and of the newer style with the separate plunger. (similar to the bottom one in the following URL)

http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-...s/272532-5906-recoil-spring-guide-midway.html

If anyone is in need of a replacement I should be able to help out. I have the specifications for model 39, 59, 559, 1006 and 4506 guns. If one is needed for another model gun it would be best if the original was sent to me so I can get the exact specifications (especially the length). The other specifications for the 1st, 2nd and 3rd Gen models seem to be the same.

I'm also working with another forum member on a design to use "flat" Glock springs in compact models that originally used the dual spring system.

Because I have had to purchase materials and special tooling, and the he length of time it takes to turn one out I'm asking 60 dollars per unit including postage to make it worth my time. If anyone is interested let me know and we can work things out.

Thanks - peh_7

 

[03Fatboy]

Hello peh_7,

Thanks for taking the time and making the newer improved and stainless guide rod. You may want to consider a new thread at some point.

Anyways, are you running your guide rod in anything? Do you have any pictures of the finished product?

 

[18DAI]

Yes, thank you peh_7!!

Do your guide rods come with the plunger and spring intact, ie a "drop in" part? Regards 18DAI

 

[smithman 10]

3rd Generation parts

I'm usually over on the revolver page but I'm sorry to hear this news about 3rd generation parts. I was just telling a buddy of mine who is in the market for a semi-auto he should maybe think of buying a used 5906 or 4506.

Now I'll have to let him know that support for these fine guns will be more difficult in the future.

But it's also a useful reminder about having a practical approach to weapons. It only makes sense to use tools that can be easily fixed or repaired when it comes to serious firearms use, no matter how fond one might be of the old stuff.

Now if I can just avoid breaking any parts on my Model 39!

 

[Hill_Country]

Where is all this "news" about Smith no longer supporting 3d Gens coming from? Everything I've ordered from S&W in the last year has shown up (eventually). Just like ammo and parts for other guns, deliveries are slow, but do arrive eventually.

And the usual aftermarket suppliers are still in business. This morning I received an email from MidwayUSA saying that my backordered 4513/457 recoil spring sets are expected to be in stock soon. (Hint - Get your order in now if you need a set.)

Just to be sure, I just called S&W Customer Support and asked if 3d Generation pistols are still supported and the answer was "absolutely." The rep added that, yes, some parts deliveries are slow, but they're still coming.

Perhaps the people spreading the rumor are trying to buy some fine weapons on the cheap.

 

[peh_7]

Stainless Steel Guide Rods

I am using these guide rods in my 1006, 4506 and 559 (same as 39 and 59). I will be supplying the complete "drop in part". If you need a rod for a model not equivalent to these it would be best to send me the original rod so I can verify the dimensions. The image below shows two of the rods, the top for the 1006, 4506, and the shorter for the 559, 39, 59. Please contact me at my personal email if you have questions.

[email protected]

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Spring set

And the usual aftermarket suppliers are still in business. This morning I received an email from MidwayUSA saying that my backordered 4513/457 recoil spring sets are expected to be in stock soon...

I have the same springs on backorder (since Dec-2013) too but I haven't heard anything from them. I do see that they now show a 8/13/14 "expected" date for the inner spring but the outer still shows "overdue". I'm not holding my breath for them though.