Faulkner
Member
Gotta admit, the rounds in that speedloader are pretty impressive.
44-40 ammunition
- Thread starter panamajack310
- Start date
Texas Star
US Veteran
You were lucky to score that old M-29 Safariland holster meant for a five-inch bbl. Those must be rare in that barrel length, presumably meant mainly for the five-inch M-27.
T-Star
T-Star
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OP
panamajack310
Member
yeah it was pretty lucky to find that holster on E-bay
Wow!
Nice setup! Great photos too.
sure ill post some pics here is my rig I will carry on my 1 1/2" double thick black belt
Nice setup! Great photos too.
Blue
That sure looks good in blue. Shame we don't see more blue guns these days.
I would like one just like it.
That sure looks good in blue. Shame we don't see more blue guns these days.
I would like one just like it.
gkitch
Member
I am uncomfortable with your load choices.
One has no factory loaded HP defense round available. This leaves handloading your only choice, in which case you must perfect, via thorough testing, a good 900-950 fps 200 gr HP load. Handloaded Defensive rounds bring with them some degree of courtroom drama potential: "Your Honor, this man who shot the good Mr XXX, could not go to the store and BUY bullets that were deadly enough for him! He had to go out to his garage and make his OWN lethal cartriges!"
I think, perhaps, such would be less likely in many parts of our country, but it would always be something to consider. If one must go 44 WCF for defense, go the handload route. Be alive to give your side of it to the investigator.
I have personally tracked a deer hit in the vitals with a 44 SP. Never found him. My evaluation concluded that using a good HP would have made the difference. The deer weighed less than your average crack-head.
One has no factory loaded HP defense round available. This leaves handloading your only choice, in which case you must perfect, via thorough testing, a good 900-950 fps 200 gr HP load. Handloaded Defensive rounds bring with them some degree of courtroom drama potential: "Your Honor, this man who shot the good Mr XXX, could not go to the store and BUY bullets that were deadly enough for him! He had to go out to his garage and make his OWN lethal cartriges!"
I think, perhaps, such would be less likely in many parts of our country, but it would always be something to consider. If one must go 44 WCF for defense, go the handload route. Be alive to give your side of it to the investigator.
I have personally tracked a deer hit in the vitals with a 44 SP. Never found him. My evaluation concluded that using a good HP would have made the difference. The deer weighed less than your average crack-head.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
"For those of you who are reloading 44-40, do have a favorite bullet you want to recommend?
How do you feel about Sarline brass?
Favorite powder?"
Howdy
I prefer Winchester brass for 44-40. Winchester has the thinnest brass at the case mouth, around .007 thick. Starline can be a hair thicker. This can matter because rifling groove diameter can vary quite a lot with 44-40 guns. The 19th Century standard for 44-40 was .427, as opposed to .429 for 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Mag. But in fact, 44-40 groove diameter could vary all over the place with old guns, as low as .425 and up to over .430.
If you look up the SAMMI specs for the cartridge, the groove diameter is still supposed to be .427, but a lot of modern manufacturers today routinely use standard .429 44Sp/44Mag barrels. Ruger does. Most Uberti rifles are coming through today with .429 barrels too. This means that with lead bullets, a .430 bullet will be ideal. However, sometimes you will run into a chamber that is a bit tight. If you encounter the combination of a barrel requiring a .430 bullet and a tight chamber, you may find difficulty chambering the round. That is where the thinnest possible brass comes in. It may buy you an extra .001 or so, which may make the difference between chambering the round and not chambering the round.
There can also be problems with chamber throat diameter and barrel groove diameter with 44-40 in revolvers. When Ruger first started chambering the Vaquero for the cartridge, they were putting cylinders with chamber throats around .425 on guns with barrels of .429. This silly combination resulted in bullets being swaged down as they went through the throat and then they rattled down the bore. Most of those guns behaved fine when the chamber throats were reamed out to .429 or so.
For bullets with Smokeless powder, I have always used any hardcast 200 grain Round Nosed Flat Point bullet, sized appropriately. With Black Powder I use my own home cast Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullets cast from pure lead and lubed with SPG. I size them to .428 because my rifles vary in groove diameter from .427 to .429. The dead soft lead bullets bump up in the bore to fill the grooves. At least I think they do, they shoot fine out of my Henry.
For powder, I prefer Unique for Smokeless, but mostly I use FFg.
Regarding previous comments about loading 44-40; yes I lube my cases, with Hornady one shot spray lube. Much quicker and easier than a lube pad.
Regarding the crimp; there really is no such thing as a 'heavy crimp' with 44-40. The brass is so thin it does not really form much of a roll crimp. It kind of just smooshes into the crimp groove and takes the shape of the crimp groove. You will never get a whole lot of neck tension with such a thin brass cross section, you just do the best you can.
Regarding difficulties crumpling 44-40 cases, two suggestions: If you are loading relatively large diameter bullets, like up around .430 you might try using the expanding plug from a 44 Mag/44 Sp die set. The plug included in most 44-40 die sets is for .427 bullets. Shoving a .430 bullet into a neck sized for .427 can create enough friction grab the brass and mash it down with the bullet. The plug from a 44Mag/44 Sp die set will be a couple of thou larger. Try the standard plug first, but if you are having problems, see if you can order the 44Mag/44Sp plug.
2. Adjust your seating crimping die very carefully. Adjust it so that the crimp does not quite contact the underside of the crimp groove. If the crimp is jammed up against the underside of the groove, the brass may actually get shoved down a hair as the crimp is formed, resulting in a bulge under the bullet. The more robust neck of a straight walled case will just bite into the bullet, but the thin neck of 44-40 is not strong enough and something will have to give. The brass usually gives. I like to leave a gap of maybe .005-.010 above the case mouth when I load 44-40. Many shooters use a Lee Factory Crimp die because of this, but I have good results with a standard RCBS seating/crimp die.
ALSO...do not rush when loading 44-40. If you jam one into the bottom of the sizing die, it will probably crumple. Work a little bit slower so you feel it if one strikes the bottom of the die. Back off and center the case better.
For what it's worth, I reload all my 44-40 on a Horndady Lock & Load AP progressive press, but I run it a little bit slower than when I am loading 45 Colt.
How do you feel about Sarline brass?
Favorite powder?"
Howdy
I prefer Winchester brass for 44-40. Winchester has the thinnest brass at the case mouth, around .007 thick. Starline can be a hair thicker. This can matter because rifling groove diameter can vary quite a lot with 44-40 guns. The 19th Century standard for 44-40 was .427, as opposed to .429 for 44 Russian, 44 Special, and 44 Mag. But in fact, 44-40 groove diameter could vary all over the place with old guns, as low as .425 and up to over .430.
If you look up the SAMMI specs for the cartridge, the groove diameter is still supposed to be .427, but a lot of modern manufacturers today routinely use standard .429 44Sp/44Mag barrels. Ruger does. Most Uberti rifles are coming through today with .429 barrels too. This means that with lead bullets, a .430 bullet will be ideal. However, sometimes you will run into a chamber that is a bit tight. If you encounter the combination of a barrel requiring a .430 bullet and a tight chamber, you may find difficulty chambering the round. That is where the thinnest possible brass comes in. It may buy you an extra .001 or so, which may make the difference between chambering the round and not chambering the round.
There can also be problems with chamber throat diameter and barrel groove diameter with 44-40 in revolvers. When Ruger first started chambering the Vaquero for the cartridge, they were putting cylinders with chamber throats around .425 on guns with barrels of .429. This silly combination resulted in bullets being swaged down as they went through the throat and then they rattled down the bore. Most of those guns behaved fine when the chamber throats were reamed out to .429 or so.
For bullets with Smokeless powder, I have always used any hardcast 200 grain Round Nosed Flat Point bullet, sized appropriately. With Black Powder I use my own home cast Big Lube Mav-Dutchman bullets cast from pure lead and lubed with SPG. I size them to .428 because my rifles vary in groove diameter from .427 to .429. The dead soft lead bullets bump up in the bore to fill the grooves. At least I think they do, they shoot fine out of my Henry.
For powder, I prefer Unique for Smokeless, but mostly I use FFg.
Regarding previous comments about loading 44-40; yes I lube my cases, with Hornady one shot spray lube. Much quicker and easier than a lube pad.
Regarding the crimp; there really is no such thing as a 'heavy crimp' with 44-40. The brass is so thin it does not really form much of a roll crimp. It kind of just smooshes into the crimp groove and takes the shape of the crimp groove. You will never get a whole lot of neck tension with such a thin brass cross section, you just do the best you can.
Regarding difficulties crumpling 44-40 cases, two suggestions: If you are loading relatively large diameter bullets, like up around .430 you might try using the expanding plug from a 44 Mag/44 Sp die set. The plug included in most 44-40 die sets is for .427 bullets. Shoving a .430 bullet into a neck sized for .427 can create enough friction grab the brass and mash it down with the bullet. The plug from a 44Mag/44 Sp die set will be a couple of thou larger. Try the standard plug first, but if you are having problems, see if you can order the 44Mag/44Sp plug.
2. Adjust your seating crimping die very carefully. Adjust it so that the crimp does not quite contact the underside of the crimp groove. If the crimp is jammed up against the underside of the groove, the brass may actually get shoved down a hair as the crimp is formed, resulting in a bulge under the bullet. The more robust neck of a straight walled case will just bite into the bullet, but the thin neck of 44-40 is not strong enough and something will have to give. The brass usually gives. I like to leave a gap of maybe .005-.010 above the case mouth when I load 44-40. Many shooters use a Lee Factory Crimp die because of this, but I have good results with a standard RCBS seating/crimp die.
ALSO...do not rush when loading 44-40. If you jam one into the bottom of the sizing die, it will probably crumple. Work a little bit slower so you feel it if one strikes the bottom of the die. Back off and center the case better.
For what it's worth, I reload all my 44-40 on a Horndady Lock & Load AP progressive press, but I run it a little bit slower than when I am loading 45 Colt.
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gkitch
Member
Since Driftwood Johnson has weighed in, just follow his advice. It is through his wisdom that I approached the 44-40 for the first time. He is a respected resource on such matters, especially among the cowboy action crowd.
I use a Colt Frontier Six-shooter every night loaded with a 205 grn. Flat top over 9grn. Of Unique. I sleep tight and don't worry. Put down many deer and feral hogs with this load so some perp who breaks in will meet the the same end! If I need more than five shots that's some sloppy home defense! The 44-40 turning bad guys into fertilizer since 1878 in Colts and 1873 in Winchester rifles.
Attachments
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LoboGunLeather
US Veteran
I have a Marlin Model 1894 in .44-40, manufactured in 1905. Also have a Colt Single Action Army 'Frontier Six Shooter' in .44-40, manufactured in 1914. Both are good shooters.
.44-40 (aka: .44 WCF, .44 Winchester) was introduced in 1873 along with the Winchester Model 1873 rifle. The cartridge is basically a centerfire development of the earlier .44 Henry rimfire. Very popular well into the 20th Century.
Bottleneck case design, so no carbide dies and case lube will always be required. Relatively thin case walls and necks, so I suggest caution with heavier loads because they can cause extraction and ejection problems.
Performance-wise the .44-40 can exceed .44 Special in revolvers, and in rifles it will shoot close to .44 magnum spec's with the lighter to mid-weight bullets (175-210 grains or so), with the .44 magnum really coming into its own with the heavier bullets.
Ammo can be very difficult to find, as can brass, and usually expensive when available. Bore and groove diameters vary widely, and most factory ammo will have .426-.427" bullets to accommodate. Newer guns are more likely to have .429" groove diameters, so factory ammo may not perform to best standards. I stick with cast lead bullets and modest loads in my two 100-plus year old .44-40's.
.44-40 (aka: .44 WCF, .44 Winchester) was introduced in 1873 along with the Winchester Model 1873 rifle. The cartridge is basically a centerfire development of the earlier .44 Henry rimfire. Very popular well into the 20th Century.
Bottleneck case design, so no carbide dies and case lube will always be required. Relatively thin case walls and necks, so I suggest caution with heavier loads because they can cause extraction and ejection problems.
Performance-wise the .44-40 can exceed .44 Special in revolvers, and in rifles it will shoot close to .44 magnum spec's with the lighter to mid-weight bullets (175-210 grains or so), with the .44 magnum really coming into its own with the heavier bullets.
Ammo can be very difficult to find, as can brass, and usually expensive when available. Bore and groove diameters vary widely, and most factory ammo will have .426-.427" bullets to accommodate. Newer guns are more likely to have .429" groove diameters, so factory ammo may not perform to best standards. I stick with cast lead bullets and modest loads in my two 100-plus year old .44-40's.
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Beemer-mark
Member
I have a 544 and love it. Of all the 44-40 handguns it is the most accurate. The 544 is nothing but a model 29 44 magnum with the cylinder chambered for the 44-40 round. The barrel mikes out at .429 and the throats are close to that. Very accurate gun. 16.5 grain of 2400 will push a 200 grain .429/.430 bullet at 1200 fps by my chronograph. Nothing to sneeze at. A more manageable load is 9.0 grains of Unique for ~950 fps. My bullets are cast soft with a BHN of about 10 but never more than 12.
I tried 240 grain bullets with some success but they wouldn't work in my other guns (Colts). You need to get some good reload dies and experiment a bit to find the best combination. You really need to find Dave Scovill's book "Colts Single Actions" on reloading this cartridge.
I tried 240 grain bullets with some success but they wouldn't work in my other guns (Colts). You need to get some good reload dies and experiment a bit to find the best combination. You really need to find Dave Scovill's book "Colts Single Actions" on reloading this cartridge.
Shooting my M 544,
screencast
it's OK but my M 21 is a better revolver I think.
uploading pictures
Reloading 44-40 is sometimes a challenge as the brass can be damaged easy.
Even have a M28 I had converted to 38-40.
image hosting no sign up
It's OK, but for a 40 caliber
it's just a shooting toy. Don't even know why I spent so much having it
made..
screencastit's OK but my M 21 is a better revolver I think.
uploading picturesReloading 44-40 is sometimes a challenge as the brass can be damaged easy.
Even have a M28 I had converted to 38-40.
image hosting no sign upIt's OK, but for a 40 caliber
it's just a shooting toy. Don't even know why I spent so much having it
made..
There is joy in old Cal's. Of the west. The 44-40 is a nice shooting round with good power and mild recoil. The case seals well, not like the 45 colt which burns the brass.carry on and enjoy your works of art.
I have loaded and fired many thousands of 44-40 rounds in SASS on a Dillon 550B....biggest thing is to SLOW DOWN!
You need to make sure that the casing is centered in the shell casing BEFORE you try to insert it into the die body.
Never once have I had a cylinder not turn due to the cartridge being fired.....high prime (my fault not the cartridge) yes, but nOT due to firing it.
I've shot both black powder and smokeless with NO issues. Any crinkled casings were MY fault! No paying enough attention and going too fast.....
Randy
You need to make sure that the casing is centered in the shell casing BEFORE you try to insert it into the die body.
Never once have I had a cylinder not turn due to the cartridge being fired.....high prime (my fault not the cartridge) yes, but nOT due to firing it.
I've shot both black powder and smokeless with NO issues. Any crinkled casings were MY fault! No paying enough attention and going too fast.....
Randy
Driftwood Johnson
Member
Howdy Again
I see this thread has been revived since I last posted to it.
I only own two revolvers that are chambered for 44-40.
This is a Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army, manufactured sometime between 1881 and 1883. This one I only shoot with Black Powder.
My other 44-40 revolver is this Colt New Service, made in 1907.
However I have lots of lever rifles chambered for 44-40, five of them at last count. The only cartridge I load more of then 44-40 is 45 Colt.
I see this thread has been revived since I last posted to it.
I only own two revolvers that are chambered for 44-40.
This is a Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army, manufactured sometime between 1881 and 1883. This one I only shoot with Black Powder.
My other 44-40 revolver is this Colt New Service, made in 1907.
However I have lots of lever rifles chambered for 44-40, five of them at last count. The only cartridge I load more of then 44-40 is 45 Colt.
BUFF
SWCA Member, Absent Comrade
I bought a new/with case Model 544 in 1987, S/N TWT2703, in 1987. I kept thinking about shooting it, bought a set of dies and a couple boxes of Winchester factory-fresh .44-40 fodder. Never did shoot it but sold it to a gentleman who bought a couple other of my guns during the post-nubial division of the goods/paying my lawyer.
I had encountered an as-new in box Colt New Frontier with a 4-3/4 inch barrel chambered in .44-40. I sent it back to Colt who added a cylinder cut for the .44 Special.
I had no chronograph but had timed both .44 Special loadings I wanted to compare to the .44-40 in the Colt. One was the Winchester 246 grain RNL Special that usually gave me about 700 fps. The second was the Skelton load, a cast 250 grain SWC over 7.5 grains Unique which usually got me 850-950 fps depending on which handgun.
I fired all 200 rounds that afternoon. The .44-40 felt like it was not any harder recoiling than the factory .44 Special. The Skelton Special kicked harder.
The 100 .44-40 cartridges all shot well with no kind of hang-ups.
The .44-40 seemed to me to be pretty anemic. I would want faster-moving bullets for duty, and I would want those bullets to be of more modern development.
I would find a .44 Magnum cylinder and have it fit to your gun. You would then have a much wider choice of factory loaded modern bullets in both heavier .44 Special and lighter .44 Magnum to choose from.
I had encountered an as-new in box Colt New Frontier with a 4-3/4 inch barrel chambered in .44-40. I sent it back to Colt who added a cylinder cut for the .44 Special.
I had no chronograph but had timed both .44 Special loadings I wanted to compare to the .44-40 in the Colt. One was the Winchester 246 grain RNL Special that usually gave me about 700 fps. The second was the Skelton load, a cast 250 grain SWC over 7.5 grains Unique which usually got me 850-950 fps depending on which handgun.
I fired all 200 rounds that afternoon. The .44-40 felt like it was not any harder recoiling than the factory .44 Special. The Skelton Special kicked harder.
The 100 .44-40 cartridges all shot well with no kind of hang-ups.
The .44-40 seemed to me to be pretty anemic. I would want faster-moving bullets for duty, and I would want those bullets to be of more modern development.
I would find a .44 Magnum cylinder and have it fit to your gun. You would then have a much wider choice of factory loaded modern bullets in both heavier .44 Special and lighter .44 Magnum to choose from.
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Guys, in the 6 1/2 years since the original post it looks like the OP went to a 686/642, then to the dark (plastic) side of Sig Sauer:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/461741-i-feel-so-stupid.html#post138922181
http://smith-wessonforum.com/smith-wesson-m-p-pistols/461741-i-feel-so-stupid.html#post138922181
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