.44 Russian target model?

[glowe]

No need for an image, just measure the length of the cylinder. With a 4 digit serial number, if 1 7/16" it has to be a 44 Russian and if 1 9/16" it has to be a 44 Frontier. The long cylinder was not available prior to the introduction of the 44 Winchester Frontier DA in 1886. The 44 Russian DA had the short cylinder until around 15,000 serial number.

 

[Oyeboteb]

No need for an image, just measure the length of the cylinder. With a 4 digit serial number, if 1 7/16" it has to be a 44 Russian and if 1 9/16" it has to be a 44 Frontier. The long cylinder was not available prior to the introduction of the 44 Winchester Frontier DA in 1886. The 44 Russian DA had the short cylinder until around 15,000 serial number.

Not necessarily, some long Cylinder ones were chambered in .44 Russian...I myself have one which is...kind of wacky, huh!

 

[glowe]

Not necessarily, some long Cylinder ones were chambered in .44 Russian...I myself have one which is...kind of wacky, huh!

Not until serial number 15,000. As I noted, there were no long cylinders before the introduction of the 44 DA Frontier in 1885 and in that year, the 44 Russian was at 15,000 serial number.

 

[BMur]

Cylinder length?

I don't know. Sometimes you have to check to be certain but to me it's obvious that the OP's gun is a frontier model DA in 44 WCF. Not just by serial number but by the photo of the cylinder. I think by now we should be able to see the difference without a measuring tape.
See photo one. OP's gun
See photo two. 44 Russian cylinder.

I think the difference is beyond obvious.

Look at it this way. Imagine looking at the frame without the cylinder present. The 44 Russian frame depicts a very clear square in the void. Where as the Frontier Model without the cylinder depicts a very clear rectangle. That's how I see the difference.

Murph

 

[Exmilcop]

OK, you guys have this old fart thoroughly confused. Without a doubt, the .44-40 has a 4 digit serial number which Ed states came off the line on 20 Dec. 1882. Did S&W start a new serial number sequence when they commenced production of the Frontier models? You will note from the pics the undeniable difference in the cylinder lengths between the my Russian and Frontier models. You'll also note the Frontier chambers the .44-40 rnd. whereas the Russian does not.

 

[glowe]

.44DA, ser. # 7661, was manufactured Dec 20, 1882, if it's a .44 Russian. If it's a 44-40, make date is Aug. 24, 1889. Blue revolver . Ed

Ed looked up a 44 Russian and 44-40 DA. 44 Frontier did start with "1" in 1885.

 

[opoefc]

The .44DA Russians were a separate serial number range than the .44DA 44-40 revolvers. The 44-40 DA guns had a longer cylinder to allow the 44-40 to chamber, as it is a longer cartridge than the .44Russian. Most of the guns made as 44-40, in their separate serial number range, were chambered in caliber 44-40, but a few were made in .44Russian and had the longer cylinders. Ed

 

[Exmilcop]

So, in brief, if I'm understanding this correctly, the revolver in question, being a .44-40 DA Frontier model had a different serial number sequence from the .44 Russian DA which had come out prior to the development and adoption of the bigger frames to accommodate the bigger cartridge. If that's the case, then the date that Ed gave me would be incorrect, right?

 

[BMur]

Error?

Actually, the error's source or root cause is this threads listing. "Target 44 Russian". If it was listed as a Frontier DA? The error in DOM would not have occurred. I'd estimate DOM at about 1886.

Also,
If we want to be historically accurate we must include other Gun Manufactures in this subject. The reason Smith & Wesson introduced the Frontier DA on this 44 Russian DA frame was to compete with the idea of using 1 singular cartridge in both your rifle and your side arm on the American Frontier. It had absolutely nothing to do with accuracy that's for sure! The 44 WCF is a Rifle cartridge. Not originally designed for a pistol.

You will find that Colt, Hopkins & Allen ,Merwin & Hulbert, etc also introduced the Frontier caliber on a pistol frame at Basically the same time in history to meet market interest. 1 round for both a pistol and rifle.

The idea made sense on the Frontier where cartridge availability was very often limited.

That is the source of the individual serial number range. It was an afterthought, a modification, and in my opinion should be recognized as both historically significant and the reason for starting a new serial number range.

Murph

 

[glowe]

So, in brief, if I'm understanding this correctly, the revolver in question, being a .44-40 DA Frontier model had a different serial number sequence from the .44 Russian DA which had come out prior to the development and adoption of the bigger frames to accommodate the bigger cartridge. If that's the case, then the date that Ed gave me would be incorrect, right?

No, your 44 DA Frontier revolver was made on Aug. 24, 1889, just as Ed stated for the 44-40. A 44 DA Russian with that same serial number as your revolver would have shipped in 1882 with a short cylinder.

 

[BMur]

Edit

My apologies,
I did not see Ed's edit.

Murph

 

[Exmilcop]

Actually, the error's source or root cause is this threads listing. "Target 44 Russian". If it was listed as a Frontier DA? The error in DOM would not have occurred. I'd estimate DOM at about 1886.
I understand about the confusion, but you'll note the question mark in the header of the start of the thread. It was a question as the pistol seemed unusual with that foresight.

 

[BMur]

A mistake

So it's like this. Should I have been able to determine the caliber of this antique when I have it in hand? Should I have been able to tell that it was not a 44 Russian?

If the answer is yes? Then you made a mistake. It's OK. We all make mistakes. Perhaps the seller also made a mistake in the listing?

You can imagine how many mistakes were made during the time this antique was manufactured? Why? NO caliber marking whatsoever breeds mistakes. Even today. 133 years later!

Murph

 

[Exmilcop]

As ever, thank you all! Without your input and your generosity in sharing your collective wisdom and knowledge, guys like me would be at a loss in identifying these old S&W's. As a final recap, according to you gentlemen, what I have is a S&W Frontier model in .44-40 which came off the line as a blued revolver Aug.24, 1889. My last question is if the first model DA's were in .44 Russian, did S&W call this a second model DA, or just differentiate by calling the Frontier model?

 

[BMur]

Smith and Wesson "Catalog" reference

Well,
I'm sure you will get a lot of opinions regarding the correct titles for these antique guns. I like to refer to "period" reference. By that I mean "specifically" Factory Catalog Reference only. This for an accurate factory description of their products.

Make no mistake that often collectors use period "Major Distributor" catalog reference as an accurate reference? I'm guilty of using those sources myself. I like the catch phrases that they used to label antique guns....Like "Peacemaker" ,"Lightning", "Thunderer",etc . I have no doubt that they in fact were the originator of the title: lemon squeezer .

However, technically those are period sales references not factory references.

The photo's attached are from an authentic "Smith & Wesson" Company catalog that clearly lists from factory reference existing guns available on the Market circa 1887.

This is most definitely a Period Factory Reference. Using these titles in my opinion would be 100% accurate for the large frame double actions of that Era.

You will also note that Smtih & Wesson dedicated two separate pages in this catalog. One for each model. So, they are not the same model having two different calibers.

Murph

 

[Frontier44]

As ever, thank you all! Without your input and your generosity in sharing your collective wisdom and knowledge, guys like me would be at a loss in identifying these old S&W's. As a final recap, according to you gentlemen, what I have is a S&W Frontier model in .44-40 which came off the line as a blued revolver Aug.24, 1889. My last question is if the first model DA's were in .44 Russian, did S&W call this a second model DA, or just differentiate by calling the Frontier model?

You hit the nail on the head! If it ain't chambered for 44 WCF or 38 WCF, it ain't a Double Action Frontier. There were a total of 15,340 Frontier models manufactured with fewer than 300 of them chambered in 38 WCF. That's the one I need next!

 

[Inusuit]

You hit the nail on the head! If it ain't chambered for 44 WCF or 38 WCF, it ain't a Double Action Frontier. There were a total of 15,340 Frontier models manufactured with fewer than 300 of them chambered in 38 WCF. That's the one I need next!

Saying "need" instead of "want" in this situation is the sign of a serious misuse of the English language. This was explained to me by my wife in similar circumstances.

 

[Kinman]

I think the fact that S&W put the label of "Frontier" on the later iteration of D.A. revolver speaks volumes as regards its use as a companion piece for the 44-40 rifle or carbine. Couldn't agree more and also appreciate the quick lesson on how to determine whether or not it is chambered for 44-40 the visual difference is obvious, early dated models taken into consideration. This lesson I found as interesting as the one about taking a .451 bullet with you to when looking at a Model of 1917, if it drops into the front chamber, pass...

 

[Exmilcop]

Sometimes I'm an idiot! I'd totally forgotten that I had a lone .44-40 round kicking around so I tried it in the pistol. It slipped into the chamber slick as could be so for sure it's a Frontier model. That takes it from "antique" status up here in Canada and puts it into the "restricted" category so I've started the paperwork with the RCMP to get it registered.

 

[Boulder350]

Target Sights

I purchased this late model 44 Russian a few years ago. The front sight was messed and looked poorly on this old girl so I changed out the front sight. Though to myself, why stop there since I had a rear target sight laying around. Unfortunately the rear sight blade was missing on the rear sight. I've looked high and low for an original blade with no luck. Then it hit me, Uberti made a Frontier model that closely duplicated this gun so I looked for a parts list and bingo, Taylors and Company still carried the rear sight blades for their new gun. I bought one, and a few more, and with a little modification it fits. I still have the original rear latch and will keep it with this gun.