45-70 question

[LostintheOzone]

I'm contemplating buying a 45-70. Probably an 1885 of some sort. I'm recoil sensitive so if I do buy one I'll be reloading for it in the trap door range using 405 gr or lighter lead. I've seen some data published using 2400 and I have that on hand. I also have a good quantity of brass.

What I don't have is LR primers. I have 4 or 5K LP primers though.

The question for the reloaders is, could I use LP primers instead of LR primers with 2400? I see a load in an old Lyman manual for 22 grns using a 385 gr cast bullet. Is 22 grns of 2400 going to work here using a LP primer, or should I just try to source some LR primers? I'm not sure if any can be found at my LGS and I don't want to pay hazmat for a few hundred primers.

 

[rockquarry]

I wouldn't use them but some do. However, If you keep your loads light/low pressure, they're probably fine. I like the old books for reference and comparison purposes and have many, but you also need the newer data.

 

[Buford57]

From CCI's FAQs:


I have CCI Large Pistol primers, can I use them instead of the Large Rifle primers I need for my rifle loading?
No. The primers are dimensionally different, as are the primer pockets.


If we were closer I'd offer a trade.

 

[glowe]

The large pistol primers are thin compared to most rifle primers and if your firing pin is a little short, you might expect misfires. LR primers are .123" to .136" thick and LP primers are .115" to .126" so some might fit. I have used them, but for me they set too deep, depressed into the case.

As for the powder, I just looked up the Alliant reloading data for 2400 and they do not list 45-70 as a caliber for this powder??? I guess I always lean towards fast powder in old-time black powder calibers and steer clear of slow powders like 2400. Accurate 5744 has proven to be my go to powder for those big BP rifle calibers like 45-70, 45-75, and 45-90, but it is said that 3031 has been the standard with many 45-70 target shooters for decades.

 

[rockquarry]

I'd get the right primers.

 

[twodog max]

I would find some LR primers. They are not plentiful but you can find them with diligence.
I load quite a lot of cast bullets in the 45/70. I have never tried 2400 but is is in the Lyman cast bullet book. I use IMR 4198 and Accurate 5744. If you use the low end starting loads or trapdoor info recoil should be manageable. I prefer using bullets in the 350-365 grain range to minimize recoil. With these two powders if you go to low you may have hangfires, I did sometimes. I shoot my loads in a Ruger No. 1, 1886 Winchester, Marlin 1895 and Henry single shot. Low end recoil in any of these is manageable for me.

 

[LostintheOzone]

I just checked locally. There are no LR primers to be had.

I guess I'll wait until I can find some.

Thanks.

Gives me some time to find some dies and a rifle.

 

[JPMJr]

if you want to make mild loads, use Unique and go anywhere from 10gr to 14gr with lead bullets to find one you like that's accurate. Its all I use with my trapdoors and I think 11.5gr was the sweet spot for me with a 350gr projectile. Accurate but mild recoil.

 

[steelslaver]

I have real nice trapdoor Springfield and have been using 49 gr of Pyrodex RS behind a 405gr cast bullet with good results. Just picked up 5# of FFg Black powder so will be trying that. I am not a purest and know smokeless works, but hey sometimes it is fun to go with the original components.

A couple passes with patches sprayed with a mixture of 1/3 Murphy's oil soap/ 1/3 rubbing alcohol and 1/3 hydrogen peroxide cleans it right up after 20 rounds or so. A drop of oil on the hinge.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

As said above, there are several very good reasons not to use the LPP in place of LRP.

IMO the biggest problem is the different dimensions of the 2. While the SPP and SRP have the same dimensions, the large primers do not!

Just don't do it with the large primers because it's not safe like with small primers.

 

[TIMETRIPPER]

This question came up on the ASSRA forum earlier this year. Several of the responders said they used LPP in their rifle cases by seating them over a paper disc. I'm quoting one of the comment here.

I cut a strip of ordinary writing paper about 3/16" wide and slip it into my LEE priming tool above the primer getting seated.
When you seat the primer into the case it punches out the paper and sets the primer out an extra two thou or so. When I was shooting my 40-60 CPA sometimes I would get inconsistent ignition due to what appeared to be light firing pin strikes, seating the primers out just a bit cured the problem completely. The fact that the primer flash has to pass through the paper to get to the powder charge seems to not be a problem. Plenty of loaders put a paper disc inside the case over the flash hole to stop powder finding its way into the flash channel and the primer with no ill effects.
When my problem first started I figured that perhaps my firing pin had shortened after about 10,000 rounds, so I ordered another one from CPA. When it arrived it measured the same as the one in my rifle, so it wasn't a firing pin issue at all.
CPA also sent me in the same package a bunch of parts like springs etc for no charge, CPA are the best people to deal with bar none.

This shows that it has been done successfully. Many of the posters on the ASSRA are gunsmiths or machinists and long time single shot rifle shooters and are safety and accuracy fanatics. While I would not hesitate to use this method in a pinch, for my old straight wall rifle cases and mild loads, it is best to stick with LRPs.

John

 

[LostintheOzone]

Update. I checked my LGS today. They have CCI BR2 primers. 1K for $130. They won't break a box. Those are bench rest primers and I don't need those for 45-70, nor do I want to buy 1K. I want a few hundred so I can tip toe into this without a huge purchase of components. I have brass and will buy dies. Bullets are available online.

Primers are hanging me up which I anticipated. Looks like I might have to wait awhile before I put this 45-70 experience together.

 

[Autonomous]

Rossi makes a model 92 .454 Casull lever action rifle that has plenty thump but would offer less kick.
I think the cartridge uses small rifle primers.

 

[Ruger 13]

I’ve done it with no problems at all with up to 25 grains of 2400. Now with BP loads I use Federal LR magnum primers exclusively.

 

[StrawHat]

… contemplating buying a 45-70. Probably an 1885 of some sort. I'm recoil sensitive…

If this is correct, consider the same rifle in 38-55. Great for target or hunting and much easier on the shoulder than the 45-70.

Kevin

 

[TheTinMan]

If this is correct, consider the same rifle in 38-55. Great for target or hunting and much easier on the shoulder than the 45-70.

Kevin

I am not “recoil sensitive” but 45-70 is one stout cartridge, even at target load levels. Years ago I got a Marlin 1895. Dutifully made up a ladder of loads to find a good one. Went to the range with chronograph, bench rest, etc. After the 12th shot off the bench I said to myself “screw this - my shoulder hurts and how accurate does this cannon need to be anyway?” It’s still fun to shoot standing up but …

Chip

 

[BSA1]

The Marlin 1895 is not a fun gun for me to shoot. A friend ruined me on the 45-70 for many years after shooting his. He loads jacketed bullets very hot and the recoil was too much punishment for me.

Later I became involved in Cowboy Action Shooting and discovered the fun in shooting big bore single shot buffalo guns such as the Sharps and Rolling Block. A 405 or 500 gr. lead bullet under a casefull of blackpowder is a comfortable cartridge to shoot long strings of fire. I found that 3031 and a 405 gr. bullet loaded between 1200 - 1300 fps gives the same performance as blackpowder without the cleanup. I have killed two Buffalo with this load.

I love the 45-70 but give a hard pass to the Marlin.

 

[rockquarry]

The Marlin 1895 is not a fun gun for me to shoot. A friend ruined me on the 45-70 for many years after shooting his. He loads jacketed bullets very hot and the recoil was too much punishment for me.

Later I became involved in Cowboy Action Shooting and discovered the fun in shooting big bore single shot buffalo guns such as the Sharps and Rolling Block. A 405 or 500 gr. lead bullet under a casefull of blackpowder is a comfortable cartridge to shoot long strings of fire. I found that 3031 and a 405 gr. bullet loaded between 1200 - 1300 fps gives the same performance as blackpowder without the cleanup. I have killed two Buffalo with this load.

I love the 45-70 but give a hard pass to the Marlin.

I've lost all interest in the .45-70, but shot several for many years including an 1895 Marlin. I couldn't imagine loading up anything stout for that rifle because of recoil. It shot very well with the Lyman #457193 (about 420 grs. and IMR4198 or 5744 loaded to about 1250 fps, a level where recoil was tolerable. As I recall, such loads were accurate in other .45-70s as well. I tried #3031 but couldn't get the accuracy with that one.

I also used the #457122 HP design (about 330 grs.) and 5744 in the Marlin, loaded to a MV of just over 1400 fps. Accurate, but my notes indicate nothing about recoil, so I'll assume it wasn't bad. Such lighter bullets will certainly help with recoil reduction if you don't shoot them fast, and there's little to be gained by shooting anything fast in a .45-70. It still has a trajectory like a slow baseball.

My remaining .45-70, a Shiloh Sharps, gather dust as I much prefer shooting my Winchester 1885 Traditional Hunter in .38-55, bought new about twenty-five years ago.

 

[Engineer1911]

I have a Taylor's Arms Quigley clone in 45-70. A 12 # rifle, 1,400 FPS muzzle velocity, and a 400 gr bullet is not punishing with AA 5744. I tried the equivalent load in 50 rounds with AA2015 and it was brutal. Muzzle velocity was listed at 1,550 FPS with a low-pressure load.

I would not shoot a Marlin 1894 or Winchester 1885 in 45-70.

I bought an 8# jug of AA5744 and have a little over a pound left. 17 rounds is 1# of lead downrange.

 

[Drm50]

Loading for original Springfield TD and Rem RB, only cast and Unique used.
I have several molds but liked the old Lyman/ Ideal Gould Express HP, 322gr.
This bullet also shot well in Marlin 1895 rifle. I’m not sure about the new short barrel Guide Guns. I think it a waste to buy short barrel 45/70. I sold my 1895 to a forum member last year. He got gun, dies and ammo. I had
given him box of 300gr JHPs that were max and gun was 0ed for them. He killed deer first day with the hot 300gr HPs. Happy he emailed me of his success and ask me for the data on the 322gr cast loads I had given him.
They are much easier on the shoulder. Why is it big guys are 1st to cry over a little kick?