.45 ACP: What is it good for? Absolutely nothing?

[Echo40]

I've noticed a trend in recent years since the FBI dropped .40 S&W in favor of 9mm Luger and their subsequent explanation as to why.

According to the FBI, based on extensive testing they had performed, 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP were all pretty much equal in terms of effectiveness, ergo it was found most efficient to adopt the 9mm Luger due to lighter recoil, faster follow up shots, greater ammo capacity, not to mention the lower cost of ammunition.

Ever since then, pretty much every article published by major magazines/outlets has repeated this statement, and pretty much every article written in regards to .45 ACP for self-defense also covers 9mm Luger and/or .40 S&W, ultimately arriving at the conclusion that 9mm Luger is better because the FBI says so.

Now let's not even get into the fact that the FBI hasn't really revealed the details or methods they used in their testing, nor begin questioning exactly what sort of methods could have possibly been used to arrive at the conclusion that 9mm Luger is equal in effectiveness to bullets of greater mass/energy foot pounds, and let's most certainly avoid making rash assumptions/accusations in regards to the FBI adopting the cheapest cartridge.

What I would really like to see discussed here today is the .45 ACP and nothing more. Not how it compares to other cartridges, just the .45 ACP cartridge on its own, something that nobody can ever seem to do anymore.

In this thread, let's discuss the merits of the .45 ACP cartridge, it's strengths, what it's good for, where it shines, and how it's still relevant today.

This is NOT a 9mm bashing thread, so please refrain from posting inflammatory comments on 9mm Luger, (or any other cartridges for that matter) let's have a nice, civil discussion for once without derailing into an insipid Caliber War.

 

[Rudi]

I have always been a fan of the .45ACP round. Many stories from WWII vets when I was a kid no doubt sparked this. CQB in the Pacific Theatre esp. Modern ammo loads are much more robust than the original loads. Critical Duty +P, Corbon, Buffalo Bore all make hotter loads. Hard to beat a GI 1911 with 8 rds. of hard ball, kind of says USA USA USA!! My 2 cents.

 

[Sevens]

I'm only posting because I'm first on the scene. I've outgrown caliber wars on gun forums years ago. So not that I ever needed a "defense" reason to want or keep a handgun, I've hardly needed anyone's reason.

So then, why do I like .45 ACP? Well, I'm about the handgun more than the chambering. If I love the handgun and it's chambered in .45 ACP, then I'm chasing a .45 ACP I guess, but not because it's a .45.

I like .45 because I have lots and lots of brass and it's a friendly cartridge to hand load. I have more handguns in .22LR and I have 3 times as many in 9mm, but my .45's are accurate and enjoyable to shoot.

I find that when the handgun is a similar model (or same), I can shoot a .45 more accurately than a 9mm.

While I certainly do carry a gun for personal defense and I practice with it, I am NOT a gunfighter. Thus, 95% of my guns are for pure enjoyment. I don't chase calibers for terminal performance.

 

[Mike SC Hunter]

Harry:

Don't get out much. Do ya?

 

[ImprovedModel56Fan]

30 Characters is insufficient.

30 Characters are insufficient.
However, when subject and predicate agree, they become 31 characters, spaces included. Perhaps more fitting might be the less pretentious but still correct "30 Characters are not enough."

 

[nachogrande]

45 ACP

45 GOOD FOR NOTHING? Don't even say it in jest. That is one cage you DO NOT want to rattle. I don't think anyone is saying it does not work, & well. Facts are facts, 16 beats 8, lighter wt ='s a person can carry more rounds, cheaper cost is a VERY REAL issue when arming 1,000's. Lower recoil meaning "many" can shoot it more accurately. I'm glad I only have to think about 1 person & I have 2-22's, 1-380, 2-38's, 2-357's, 1-9mm, 1-40, 1-45, AT THE MOMENT. MY 24/7 CC GUN is a 32, often/both CC is a 38 or 40, nightstand gun is (full sized) currently a 45, it was a 9mm for a LONG TIME???

 

[dave1918a2]

Which one do You prefer to be shot in the chest with, 45 ACP or 44 MAG. Which one ( I'm now trying to write this using the word punk without getting zinged by the Mods so I will just close.)

 

[Univibe]

Here's the dirty secret on the .45 ACP: it's a solution in search of a problem. Has been since before 1911.

The story is told about the Moros in the Philippines. How the .38 revolvers wouldn't stop the determined Moros. So they came up with the .45 ACP (original Browning spec was 200 grains at 950 fps; Army changed it to 230 grains at 850). And that solved the problem, no?

No. They never tell the sequel to the story: .45 didn't stop those Moros any better than .38 did. A lot of Moros weren't stopped by .30-40 Krag hits.

History repeated itself 80 years later. .40 S&W was invented because 9mm wouldn't stop determined Crooks. But .40 doesn't stop Crooks any better than 9mm. Another solution in search of a problem.

And the Europeans and everybody else says, Look at those Americans. We've known all along that Nine is all you need.

Having said all that, I love the .45. Been loading and shooting it for 40 years. It's low pressure, therefore easy on the cases and the gun. The big cases and bullets are easy to handle. It's slow so there's less tendency to lead the bore.

But it (and the .40) don't do a thing that 9 can't do better.


BOTTOM LINE:

At the range, I'm shooting .45.

On the street, I'm packing 9mm.

 

[Duckford]

If one is restricted to non expanding bullets, the bigger the bore and the duller the face the better. Ball to ball there is no comparison, 45 ACP is superior to other auto loader choices by large margins. We tell people "don't use non expanding bullets in this day and age unless you shoot low power 38 Special/380 ACP or less", and there is good value in this, but the 45 ACP ball at least has an impressive history of success. A big, dull, ugly crushy bullet that punches deep and gets to the heart of the matter, it has a sterling reputation for effectiveness even without expanding bullets. As I've read here and elsewhere "a 9mm may expand, but a 45 doens't shrink". If non expanding bullets are imposed the 45 ACP is a shining star.

45 ACP enjoys improvements in effectiveness with modern hollow points, its performance is superior to 9mm Luger and others. Less energy is used to expand a large diameter bullet to the same size as a smaller caliber would, also weight and sectional density play a role in helping the 45 ACP JHP's punch deep consistently while expanding well. Looking at performance in the overall, maximum expansion as well as total expansion and final expanded shape the 45 ACP still shines. One can argue if having a larger expanded bullet helps that much, but the 45 can outexpand other calibers for what its worth. I say the greater advantage is that even with massive expansion its the greater penetration that makes it valuable in expanding bullets, it punches deep dependably. Its a consistent high performer here, always a solid choice.

The other factor in hollow point ammunition goes back to concepts of ball performance, insomuch that expanding bullets sometimes fail to expand, especially when barriers are involved. Even if smaller calibers have an easier time penetrating some barriers because of less frontal surface area and shape helping to decrease resistance, JHP have an extremely high rate of failure to expand after hitting many types of barriers in real life gun fights. Here again, the 45 doesn't shrink and will be of potentially superior damage to the target behind the barrier. What things it can penetrate it still can hurt well.

To more of OP's "stick to 45 only" its a solid choice with a sterling real life reputation that extends from its earliest days and simplist bullets all the way to today with modern bullet advancements. It penetrates deep, always crushes tissue decently at a minimum, a good bone breaker, offers high end expanding bullet performance in terms of both expansion and more importantly penetration. In every regard its a solid, strong performer with no weaknesses. It enjoys solid performance in suppressed weapons, high terminal performance and energy at reduced velocities. its well at home at 950fps or less, still offers decent performance at low velocity.

Despite all the attacks on it, despite claims it can be replaced, no one has ever been able to make a solid argument that it isn't effective and a good choice.

 

[poorbroker]

I enjoy shooting the .45 ACP more than any other round and I also like my pistols that fire it, such as my S&W 4506, S&W 457, M&P 45c and a M&P 45 Shield to name a few. It is very easy and fun to shoot. Also it is the only handgun round that I load. Sevens stated above, it is a very easy round to load. As someone else said, there is just something about the .45 ACP that says USA, unlike the 9mm; although I do have a few more 9's. In closing the .45 is AMERICAN like Harley-Davidson is AMERICAN: They are both big, loud and slow and I love them both!

 

[Kanewpadle]

The 45 Auto is hard to beat when it comes to penetrating barriers. Which may or may not be important to some.

 

[JayFramer]

Many reports of .45 ACP ball knocking down lightly-built japs during the Pacific.

One well documented case, though it may have occurred later in Vietnam I can’t remember, was one Marine or Soldier was in a rice patty (yeah I think it was Vietnam now) and was ambushed by three enemy. He pulled his Colt’s M1911A1 .45 and with a single shot each, dropped each enemy with authoritude.

He later said that if he were armed with a lesser gun, namely a 9mm, he would have been dead. Time has shown in theater that 9mm ball has next to 0 stopping power on an aggressive indoctrinated foe, while the .45 even with hardball will drop them almost every time.

And as far as modern hollowpoints go, the same advances touted for the 9mm have also occurred with the mighty .45 Automatic Colt’s Pistol. True you do give up some capacity vs. a 9mm gun, but with so many failures to stop with the “Tiny-9” it more than makes up for it in sheer knock-down dropping factor.

Just my $0.02.

 

[nachogrande]

THIS OLD CHESTNUT.

Which one do You prefer to be shot in the chest with, 45 ACP or 44 MAG. Which one ( I'm now trying to write this using the word punk without getting zinged by the Mods so I will just close.)

With good placement a 22 caliber can kill you. Who in their right mind would volunteer for that?

 

[nachogrande]

"KNOCKDOWN" ='s WATCHING TOO MUCH TV.

Many reports of .45 ACP ball knocking down lightly-built japs during the Pacific.

One well documented case, though it may have occurred later in Vietnam I can’t remember, was one Marine or Soldier was in a rice patty (yeah I think it was Vietnam now) and was ambushed by three enemy. He pulled his Colt’s M1911A1 .45 and with a single shot each, dropped each enemy with authoritude.

He later said that if he were armed with a lesser gun, namely a 9mm, he would have been dead. Time has shown in theater that 9mm ball has next to 0 stopping power on an aggressive indoctrinated foe, while the .45 even with hardball will drop them almost every time.

And as far as modern hollowpoints go, the same advances touted for the 9mm have also occurred with the mighty .45 Automatic Colt’s Pistol. True you do give up some capacity vs. a 9mm gun, but with so many failures to stop with the “Tiny-9” it more than makes up for it in sheer knock-down dropping factor.

Just my $0.02.

ANYONE who has shot 100-150 pound deer with a 1 oz shotgun slug & the deer may not even move, can tell you, THAT IS FANTASY. An animal, or person may fall over or down if a solid bone is hit, that's NOT knockdown. The guy in Vietnam was speculating WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE HAPPENED. I just watched a video yesterday of a cop in a shootout. He drilled the bad guy center mass with a 40 caliber & even after rewinding & watching in slo-mo you cant even see the guy flinch, he went on & killed the cop.

 

[ACP230]

The .45 ACP is the best semiauto cartridge for bowling pin shooting.
It doesn't recoil so much that it can't be shot fast and the 230 grain
bullets get the pins moving off the table. Of course, as Rich Davis wrote, you have to hit "the white part" of the pin (the middle.)

I have shot pins with the .41 Magnum as well. It takes them down
with more authority but I often end up needing a seventh round and
not having it when using the .41.

The old .45 is also one of the easiest cartridges to reload, and to make
accurate loads for.

 

[Screwball]

Where it shines? Suppressing...

 

[Fastbolt]

The venerable .45ACP has long been called "America's cartridge". Cool, right?

There you go, the main advantage of the .45ACP.

Hey, I'm a longtime .45ACP shooter. I still own 9 pistols chambered in .45ACP, and I only own 10 pistols combined chambered in 9 & .40.

I carried a couple issued .45's on-duty over the years, but also carried issued 9's and .40's, and more of them over the years since I carried an issued revolver.

I like my .45's. A lot. Always have.

I own a Blackhawk Convertible with .45ACP & .45Colt cylinders. (I prefer shooting it with the .45Colt cylinder, as the .45Colt has a lot more potential for loadings, going back to my handloader days.) Shooting the Blackhawk with the ACP cylinder seems a little anticlimactic, by comparison.

The .45ACP's recoil is more of a slower push and mild muzzle whip, but it's more than many shooters care to shoot, especially trying to control it in rapid fire situations. Newtonian physics wins out in such things.

The pistols made for .45ACP can become a bit less tolerant of both shooter and ammunition influences the smaller they become, too. This can cause some frustration for some shooters when it leads to an increased potential for some types of functioning issues.

The older a .45ACP shooter may become, the more annoying or painful the .45's heavier (albeit slower dwell time) recoil may become, especially if repetitive stress injuries like "tennis elbow" may be involved, or even arthritis. It's not exactly uncommon for aging heavy caliber revolver and pistol shooters to discover they can shoot 9's more easily and with less aggravation and pain. I've heard my fair share of longtime .45ACP aficionados acknowledge they've changed over to shooting more 9's than their beloved .45's because of the reduced recoil and lessened pain.

Hey, some enthusiasts just like to look at the chunky fat .45ACP bullets and think they "look effective". (I kid you not.)

As far as the increased momentum of the mighty .45ACP slapping small steel plates or bowling pins off a table? Uh, walk up and gently slap one of them with the palm of your hand and watch them fly off the table even faster and farther. People may indeed fall down for some gunshot wounds, but not because of "knock down power".

I like .45's, but I don't carry them quite as often anymore. Why? Because they're generally larger, thicker and heavier than my 9's, .40's or .38SPL's, and sometimes that matters to me as I go about my various activities.

Suit yourself.

Oh yeah, when the .45ACP became an option for the guys and gals to carry at my former agency, it was chosen by close to 70% of the people (the other option was initially, .40, and then 9mm was added back into the mix).

Once those guys and gals started having to shoot and qualify with the .45's, a line started forming of people wanting to trade the .45's for lighter recoiling and more easily controllable calibers. The demand for 9's started to increase ... even among some of the longtime instructor staff who were .45ACP enthusiasts and shooters. Why? Because the 9's were lighter and a bit thinner on the belt, easier and faster to control in shot strings and they could carry more rounds for the same number of magazines. As a piece of LE safety/work equipment (meaning duty weapon), the 9 has some nice attributes.

 

[Rick_A]

It's my favorite cartridge in my favorite guns.

This is an excerpt from the original "FBI Notes" regarding the switch to 10mm (and later 40S&W). They rated the 45ACP as a close second to the 10mm...it was rejected only due to a lack of capacity at the time.
FBI & 10mm

Bonded hollowpoints/+P have narrowed the gap considerably in 9mm and I have a few 9mm's as well as a 40S&W. I have room for 'em all.

 

[jupiter1]

The story is told about the Moros in the Philippines. How the .38 revolvers wouldn't stop the determined Moros. So they came up with the .45 ACP (original Browning spec was 200 grains at 950 fps; Army changed it to 230 grains at 850). And that solved the problem, no?

No. They never tell the sequel to the story: .45 didn't stop those Moros any better than .38 did. A lot of Moros weren't stopped by .30-40 Krag hits.

... and the US Army didn't develop a new .45 caliber rifle because of 30-40 Krag failures.

The .38's were doing just fine from the .36 Navy Colts up until the .38 Long Colt; then the U.S. became involved in the Philippine insurrection.

The Moro engagements are what started our discussions that continue up until today. The British had similar failures with the .303. They didn't adopt a new rifle chambering a .45 caliber cartridge; they improved the .303. Some Brits were apparently not totally satisfied with the performance of their .455 revolvers against determined opponents swinging large edged weapons; judging from the efforts of some to obtain .577 Howdah handguns.

The bottom line is that we have a lot of anecdotes but nothing that scientifically proves a discernible difference in the effectiveness between the common service handgun calibers.

A physically large cartridge like .45ACP is not necessary to achieve the desired results. Its size only impedes the effort to design more compact firearms and because of that, it has become obsolescent.

 

[bmcgilvray]

Both 9mms and .45 ACPs live around here. Love the guns chambered for both.

Never really believed in the 9mm cartridge though. Weird because I love the .38 Special (if I can select the load used) and the two cartridges are really much the same. Haven't been sold on the notion that 9mm bullet design improvements truly close any perceived gaps between 9mm and everything else to which it is favorably compared. It's only the 9mm fan who stridently repeats that notion about the "great strides in 9mm bullet improvements." Nobody else in Forum-land ever seems to make mention of it. Guess no strides have been made to improve any other bullet diameter sold.

Do believe in the .45 ACP. It has "presence" with diameter and bullet weight to back it up. I still believe in bullet weight, even here in 2019.

Never really believed that the Krag cartridge failed to put down the Moro Juramentados, just as I never believed in all the Korean War tales of inadequate penetration of enemy winter clothing by the .30 Carbine. Sounds more like a lot of missing was going on or else only very poor hits.

Lots of stuff gets repeated, both in print and especially out here in Forum-land until it takes on a life of its own and becomes "gospel."