An issue that will probable never be resolved,.... but tats ok too. Carry whichever caliber YOU are the most comfortable with and shoot well. From my readings the Moro's,.. a rather fanatical bunch of lads seemed to be calmed best with the 97 Winchester with Buckshot. Not sure if accurate but that is what I have read.
.45 ACP: What is it good for? Absolutely nothing?
- Thread starter Echo40
- Start date
spad124
Member
I have three .45 ACP handguns, two are 1911s and one is a S&W M1917. What's the .45 ACP good for? It's just a fun cartridge to shoot-more push than snap. And, as others have said, because of the size of its components it's easy to reload. Finally, I like history and the .45 ACP is a great historical cartridge.
I recently watched a series on Netflix on training Churchill's spies. The series took several people from different walks of today's life and put them through the same saboteur training the Brits used in WWII. During the handgun training part they used 1911s instead of P35s or German handguns. It was interesting and entertaining to watch a grandma theater teacher hip shooting with a 1911! (Note: she did very well-as did the very petite scientific analyst!)
We've had this .38/9mm vs .44/.45 since the adoption of revolvers. Another member mentioned that the Army was satisfied with .36 cal Colt's blackpowder pistols-and they certainly used them. But the standard US Army caliber from the adoption of revolvers until the late 1890s was either a .44 or .45 beginning with the Walker .44 through the 1860 Army and the SAA. Even the Scholfield's were a .45 Colt "light" cartridge, but still a .45. My opinion is that when smokeless powder was developed and ballistic performance increased over the old BP loads, pistol cartridge developers explored using the same formula as rifle cartridge developers found effective—faster reduced caliber bullets of 150gr at 2700 FPS are flatter shooting and more effective than the .45-70 round. But at handgun distances in those early smokeless powder development days the BP .45 Colt was still more effective. The .45 ACP is pretty much the 1900 standard .45 Colt blackpowder round "modernized" (for 1910) into a smokeless powder round and adapted for a semi automatic pistol. Because of smokeless powder the case volume of the .45 Colt isn't needed, so reduce the case substantially while keeping the same ballistics. Plus remember that we still had cavalry in 1911. The .45 ACP is more effective to humanely dispatch a 900 pound wounded or injured horse.
Yes, I like my three ACPs as well as my two .45 Colt handguns.
I recently watched a series on Netflix on training Churchill's spies. The series took several people from different walks of today's life and put them through the same saboteur training the Brits used in WWII. During the handgun training part they used 1911s instead of P35s or German handguns. It was interesting and entertaining to watch a grandma theater teacher hip shooting with a 1911! (Note: she did very well-as did the very petite scientific analyst!)
We've had this .38/9mm vs .44/.45 since the adoption of revolvers. Another member mentioned that the Army was satisfied with .36 cal Colt's blackpowder pistols-and they certainly used them. But the standard US Army caliber from the adoption of revolvers until the late 1890s was either a .44 or .45 beginning with the Walker .44 through the 1860 Army and the SAA. Even the Scholfield's were a .45 Colt "light" cartridge, but still a .45. My opinion is that when smokeless powder was developed and ballistic performance increased over the old BP loads, pistol cartridge developers explored using the same formula as rifle cartridge developers found effective—faster reduced caliber bullets of 150gr at 2700 FPS are flatter shooting and more effective than the .45-70 round. But at handgun distances in those early smokeless powder development days the BP .45 Colt was still more effective. The .45 ACP is pretty much the 1900 standard .45 Colt blackpowder round "modernized" (for 1910) into a smokeless powder round and adapted for a semi automatic pistol. Because of smokeless powder the case volume of the .45 Colt isn't needed, so reduce the case substantially while keeping the same ballistics. Plus remember that we still had cavalry in 1911. The .45 ACP is more effective to humanely dispatch a 900 pound wounded or injured horse.
Yes, I like my three ACPs as well as my two .45 Colt handguns.
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spad124
Member
As a sidebar: yes, by 1910 smokeless powder cartridge development was making the .303 obsolete. Smokeless powder ballistic development at the turn of the 20th century was rapid, like communication technology today. By 1910 the Brits we're developing a .276 round to replace the .303. And their P1914 rifle in .276, basically our M1917, was to replace the SMLE. But WWI put paid to that. Not a good idea to roll out a whole new rifle/cartridge in the second year of a world war. And by war's end there were huge stocks of SMLEs and .303 so no sense in changing then either.
As to the .45ACP being too large and impeding the design of smaller lighter firearms, seven or eight .45s weigh about the same as fifteen 9mms. The trade off is simply more 9mms for the weight It's only when you reduce the payload to seven or eight 9mms that you see any weight savings. As far as pistol size, the overall size difference for small .45s and small 9mms is minimal. But I'm not a fan of small handguns-just personal preference- from the sales figures I think I'm in the minority. I really don't care for anything smaller than a Commander/Sig P6/CZ PCR sized handgun so caliber becomes a matter of what I like to shoot, not what fits in the weapon.
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Speaking as a shooter and reloader, the .45acp is very easy to reload and shoots extremely well with cast lead bullets. I recently reloaded my 25,000th .45 and have enjoyed it for over 40 years.
I shoot a lot of 9mm lately as factory ammo is cheap and I don't have to bother with the cases or reloading. I have typically reloaded 9 with fmj rounds.
I carry daily and I carry a Smith 669 as I think the 9mm is equal to the .45 and I like the idea of a DA auto with a safety. I also have a Smith 457, but the 9 holds more rounds.
I shoot a lot of 9mm lately as factory ammo is cheap and I don't have to bother with the cases or reloading. I have typically reloaded 9 with fmj rounds.
I carry daily and I carry a Smith 669 as I think the 9mm is equal to the .45 and I like the idea of a DA auto with a safety. I also have a Smith 457, but the 9 holds more rounds.
bigwheelzip
Absent Comrade
45 handguns don't like me, because it seems I am structurally unsuited to them. Shooting 45 ACP and Colt, from a 1911 and SAA platform, both created an uncomfortable vibration pulse in my arm.
CAJUNLAWYER
Member
When I'm at the range shooting my S&W 1911 I pull the trigger, the gun goes BOOM, the slide goes clackity clack and then you hear the "ping" when the bullet hits the 25 yard plate. I like that. It's not just one big b-o-o-m where all you hear is the gun going off. Same thing when shooting the model 64-everything nice and sedate. almost like in slow motion. I enjoy that.
I'm past the point of dumping magazines of 9mm just to see how fast I can do it-but I must confess I do like the occasional dumping a 30 from my choppa or my mini 14 holding it at waist level screaming "die you filthy swine" or words to that effect(when nobody is looking of course
)
I'm past the point of dumping magazines of 9mm just to see how fast I can do it-but I must confess I do like the occasional dumping a 30 from my choppa or my mini 14 holding it at waist level screaming "die you filthy swine" or words to that effect(when nobody is looking of course
)
I like the .45 because it is a low pressure cartridge that is easy to load, and is accurate. It can be used for every purpose from defense to target shooting.
It is also the most common chambering for the best semi-auto pistol ever made, the 1911. Likewise, it works well for the entire range from defense to bullseye.
It is also the most common chambering for the best semi-auto pistol ever made, the 1911. Likewise, it works well for the entire range from defense to bullseye.
4barrel
Member
I like to punch holes in paper with a 1911 45 but carry a plastic 9mm.
nachogrande
Member
BOWLING PINS
YUP, 45 acp's work well whether fired from a semi OR REVOLVER. IMO several calibers using heavy, large flat meplat, bullets moving slow work best. After much use, each pin is weighted down & has a different balance & sweet spot to hit.
YUP, 45 acp's work well whether fired from a semi OR REVOLVER. IMO several calibers using heavy, large flat meplat, bullets moving slow work best. After much use, each pin is weighted down & has a different balance & sweet spot to hit.
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.45 needs longer barrel than 9mm to reliably expand hollow points.
I would rather have a jagged expanded hole with good penetration, than a smooth .45 size hole with excessive penetration.
For me, 9mm with short 3- 3.5 inch barrels. 45 a.c.p. with 4-4.5" in. barrels.
I would rather have a jagged expanded hole with good penetration, than a smooth .45 size hole with excessive penetration.
For me, 9mm with short 3- 3.5 inch barrels. 45 a.c.p. with 4-4.5" in. barrels.
Pigirondan
Member
My anecdotal experience has shown me the following, as far as efficacy on the street:
1. 12 gauge 00 Buck
2. .357 Magnum 125 grain SJHP
3. .45 ACP 230 grain JHP
Then all the rest... .40 S&W, 9mm, .38 Special. I have to add a caveat about the .38 Special. The +P 158 grain SWC-HP was effective when used in a full size K-frame.
And I'm basing this on what the LEO's used on the bad guys. Bad guy on bad guy counts and doesn't count. There was never any consistency to their madness.
1. 12 gauge 00 Buck
2. .357 Magnum 125 grain SJHP
3. .45 ACP 230 grain JHP
Then all the rest... .40 S&W, 9mm, .38 Special. I have to add a caveat about the .38 Special. The +P 158 grain SWC-HP was effective when used in a full size K-frame.
And I'm basing this on what the LEO's used on the bad guys. Bad guy on bad guy counts and doesn't count. There was never any consistency to their madness.
jerrydm60
Member
45 ACP
Carried one for two tours in RVN and saw what it can do! Since then I have been carrying one in one form or another. My wife carries a Kimber Ultra in 45 and she loves it. To me it does what it was designed for and that was stopping people, granted its not a perfect round but keep it in its limit and it will doo the job!
Carried one for two tours in RVN and saw what it can do! Since then I have been carrying one in one form or another. My wife carries a Kimber Ultra in 45 and she loves it. To me it does what it was designed for and that was stopping people, granted its not a perfect round but keep it in its limit and it will doo the job!
I've found the 45ACP is good for punching a hole in the bottom of a used 55Gal drum so it'll drain, when preparing to use it for a burn barrel.
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT bend town below the mouth of the barrel to pop off the round without ears expecting the barrel to muffle the noise and deflect it up away from you.
Do not, I repeat, DO NOT bend town below the mouth of the barrel to pop off the round without ears expecting the barrel to muffle the noise and deflect it up away from you.
I like the flying garbage can effect. 
Old Corp
Member
My viewpoint is a result of a sorta roundabout experience.....
I was involved in an OIS years ago - duty weapon was a S&W M66 4" loaded with the issued duty round - .38 Spl. 125 gr. JHP +P (S&W-brand ammo, so that dates me).
It took six (6) rounds to stop the subject assaulting me - all COM hits and the last in the CNS.
How different is the .38 +P from the 9mm?
I later saw all the recovered bullets from the autopsy. They were all perfectly expanded (except the 6th round, which did fragment), could have been in any ad.
Yes, I'm sure many advancements have been made in bullet design.
But as already opined - a .45 does not shrink and has sheer mass in it's favor.
Let's just say that when I left CONUS last year to work for half the year in an armed position - a M&P .45 is what went with me.
I was involved in an OIS years ago - duty weapon was a S&W M66 4" loaded with the issued duty round - .38 Spl. 125 gr. JHP +P (S&W-brand ammo, so that dates me).
It took six (6) rounds to stop the subject assaulting me - all COM hits and the last in the CNS.
How different is the .38 +P from the 9mm?
I later saw all the recovered bullets from the autopsy. They were all perfectly expanded (except the 6th round, which did fragment), could have been in any ad.
Yes, I'm sure many advancements have been made in bullet design.
But as already opined - a .45 does not shrink and has sheer mass in it's favor.
Let's just say that when I left CONUS last year to work for half the year in an armed position - a M&P .45 is what went with me.
Dogbone44Spl
Member
45ACP is the only round I've used in anger. It worked very well in 230 G hardball. I can only guess modern JHP's will work better.
V0OBWxZS16
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.45 ACP: What is it good for?
- Reliable ones go bang
Uh...
- Bowling pin shoots
- Mis-calibrated falling steel targets
Uh...
...That's all I can think of at the moment.
- Reliable ones go bang
Uh...
- Bowling pin shoots
- Mis-calibrated falling steel targets
Uh...
...That's all I can think of at the moment.
More than 40 years ago I knew a LEO who was in a gunfight with 2 assailants - the one with a 9mm hit him first with 2 rounds (1 in the arm and 1 in the mid-section) then the one with a 45 hit him once in the lower leg. He said he didn't initially think the 9mm hit him, but when the 45 hit him, he went down instantly. He was saved by his partner who got both shooters with a 6 shot 38 Spl.
In my opinion the advantage of a 9mm is that when you are being shot at it is comforting to have 12-16 shots without reloading (spray and pray).
In my opinion the advantage of a 9mm is that when you are being shot at it is comforting to have 12-16 shots without reloading (spray and pray).
Insufficient information from which to draw conclusions. What ammo was used? Did the torso shot hit any vital organs? Did the shot into the arm strike bone or just muscle? Did the shot into the lower leg strike bone? What organs were struck by the six rounds of 38 Special? So many questions here it would take a pretty detailed analysis to draw an accurate conclusion.
That's the problem with most anecdotes. As of now, there is no science to prove one service caliber is noticeably more effective than another.
I agree fully with this statement. Just think the OP wanted to stir it up a little. With me it has always been location, location, location. I know that the FBI does hundreds upon hundreds of tests with different guns and different calibers and different....... Got nothing against them but, can tell you I will carry what I have trained with be it 45, 40, 357, 38, 380......... I know that some people think the sun rises and sets with them but, it doesn't.
Find a good gun in a caliber you can handle and train often! The fastest accurate shots is usually the winner. I have no illusions that 1 bullet of whatever caliber will stop the fight. You need to keep on fighting until the bad guy is not fighting anymore.
Other than the cartridges obvious pluses, I simply like how a .45 acp sounds when shot!
Always fun at the range after lots of smaller calibers being shot before hand.
It speaks with authority and if it was being aimed towards me my head would be digging further down behind good cover.
Always fun at the range after lots of smaller calibers being shot before hand.
It speaks with authority and if it was being aimed towards me my head would be digging further down behind good cover.
gman51
Member
What's good about the 45 acp?
Recoil is more of a push than a flip. Easy to stay or get back on target.
Sound is noticeably less than many smaller calibers.
45 caliber begins with a 4 and according to ER doctors calibers beginning with a 4 more often have a deadly outcome.
I agree the 45 acp has taken a back seat to the smaller calibers because people have been sold on the got to have more rounds or die.
Granted placement is everything no matter what caliber but a 45 ACP shot placement in the same 9mm placement area will in my opinion be more likely to end the fight than the 9mm.
I asked a GI about performance of the 9mm used by US soldiers and he said shooting an enemy using a 9 was like shooting through paper. Granted those are not hollow points. There again I believe the greater amount of ammo carried in the weapon is why the 9mm got the vote by the military.
Recoil is more of a push than a flip. Easy to stay or get back on target.
Sound is noticeably less than many smaller calibers.
45 caliber begins with a 4 and according to ER doctors calibers beginning with a 4 more often have a deadly outcome.
I agree the 45 acp has taken a back seat to the smaller calibers because people have been sold on the got to have more rounds or die.
Granted placement is everything no matter what caliber but a 45 ACP shot placement in the same 9mm placement area will in my opinion be more likely to end the fight than the 9mm.
I asked a GI about performance of the 9mm used by US soldiers and he said shooting an enemy using a 9 was like shooting through paper. Granted those are not hollow points. There again I believe the greater amount of ammo carried in the weapon is why the 9mm got the vote by the military.
We were out shooting some 9mm Sterling SMGs with the local Sheriff's Dept., who were issued .45 HK UMPs at the time. They had hauled out some old vehicles to practice upon, so we took turns perforating them to see what happened to the targets behind and inside. Turns out the 9mms were rather better at reaching the "bad guys"! Very few of the .45 rounds would get through more than one layer of sheet metal, glass, or what have you, whilst the 9s would regularly get through the whole thing. Was surprising to all of us.
As for the .45 ACP as a carry round, I do so fairly often. Or a 9mm. But usually it's .38+ for me.
It does seem easier to get good bull's eye accuracy out to 50 yds. with the .45 ACP than most other auto pistol rounds. Again, YMMV.
Darkenfast
Member
Do you have a source for that "ER doctor" statement? Every time I can remember it being mentioned on this forum (usually by people involved in investigations in some way), the statement has been that doctors and M.E.s cannot tell from the wounds what caliber has been used.
The GI statement is the same anecdotal reporting we see so often. Were those GIs shooting people with both .45 and 9mm handguns to compare?
The greater amount of ammunition in the weapon is ONE reason that the 9mm Parabellum became the most popular military handgun cartridge. Others include: easier to shoot with the minimal training that most members get, lower cost and use of strategic materials, and better hard object penetration.
I have never seen a scientific study that showed that the .45 is significantly better than the 9mm as a service cartridge. In FMJ, both seem to have moderate stopping power. In good HP form, both seem to have good stopping power. We can agree that shooting quickly and accurately is far more important.
This is my personal battery of self-defense pistols that I would rely on to get the job done. That's all I want to say on this.
John
John
OP
Echo40
Member
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Not at all. It's merely a subject that has been on my mind lately. Based on recent articles, it seems as though there is a sort of biased against the .45 ACP cartridge, since pretty much all recent articles on the subject of .45 ACP for self-defense seemingly cannot remain on-point and ultimately become a one-sided ".45 ACP vs 9mm Luger" debate, with the author basically making the argument that .45 ACP is a straight downgrade to 9mm Luger with virtually no redeeming qualities whatsoever.
Honestly, I wasn't even going to bring up 9mm in the OP at all to begin with, but then I saw another recent thread elsewhere on the forum in which the TC came seeking advice on a carry gun chambered in .45 ACP, only to receive a number of disrespectful responses informing him that he'd be better off carrying a 9mm, so I had hoped that I could sway the thread away from such an argument by acknowledging its existence, but requesting that the subject remained focused upon the inherent strengths of the .45 ACP cartridge in particular.
However, it didn't work, but let's face it, it was a lose/lose situation in which I probably should have known better than to hope (much less expect) that any discussion of any cartridge could remain focused on the subject at hand without veering off into caliber wars territory, especially after calling attention to such debates in the first place.
I honestly don't understand why it is that two completely different cartridges like 9mm Luger and .45 ACP have to be pitted against each other, nor why it is that one must be declared objectively superior to the other when both have their own individual strengths and weaknesses, but that's just something that seems to be unavoidable when discussing either cartridge, or any other cartridge(s) for that matter.
1, IMHO.......it's all about........ shot placement, shot placement,shot placement................caliber is secondary..........
2. FMJ...... the bigger the hole the better.......
3. SHTF ....... the higher capacity the better........
4. TEOTWAWKI.......... get a rifle ....... a pistol is secondary.......
5. In the early 1990s I had 9mms and .45s...... couldn't figure out a good reason to switch to .40....... see #1 above.
2. FMJ...... the bigger the hole the better.......
3. SHTF ....... the higher capacity the better........
4. TEOTWAWKI.......... get a rifle ....... a pistol is secondary.......
5. In the early 1990s I had 9mms and .45s...... couldn't figure out a good reason to switch to .40....... see #1 above.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
My 45acp has weathered many storms with these mcfizzled new wiz bang calibers that seem to come and grow. I give the stopping power to the 45acp everytime. When we talk about the 9mm it's firepower with less stopping power? I refuse to change my ways I'm happy with my 45 acp in my 1911's. No 9mm in my 1911.
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