BigBill
Absent Comrade
For up close and personal work teotwawki it’s the 12ga pump riot shotgun with 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug.
.45 ACP: What is it good for? Absolutely nothing?
- Thread starter Echo40
- Start date
For up close and personal work teotwawki it’s the 12ga pump riot shotgun with 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
For up close and personal work teotwawki it’s the 12ga pump riot shotgun with 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug, 00 buck, slug. No other caliber will open doors like a 12 ga, just the ratchet of the pump will make the bad guy give up.
BigBill
Absent Comrade
That guy on you tube compares the calibers shooting meat. I forget his name.
My Ruger .45acp leaves nice big holes in the paper that I can easily see. My 9mm S&W 6906, and oddly, my SCCY pocket pistol both group better in rapid fire. I trust my .45acp in the house and bedroom. I trust my 9's on the street.
Wee Hooker
Member
...everything else asside, a .45 caliber hole in my target is a whole lot easer for these old eyes to see than just about anything else.
p.s. I have to admit though, that the .45 inspires confidence in me when used for serious purposes.
p.s. I have to admit though, that the .45 inspires confidence in me when used for serious purposes.
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Please allow me to add my two cents. When I was growing up, unlike a lot of kids, I listened to my dad. He was in the National Guard in the late '50s (earning, but declining his commission). He had contact with a lot of WW2 and Korean Conflict vets. He would often comment about the excessive penetration of the 9mm, and the sound channel created by the 45.
When I turned 18, I had to get a 1911 in 45, and I learned how to shoot it. I got into NRA 2700 matches, and the prevailing philosophy was to use a 45 for the centerfire stage since the larger bullet diameter helped earn a higher score. When I deployed, I found a 1911 instead of an M9. I found the 1911 in 45 to be very comforting.
Maybe it is because I currently live in the Socialist Republic of New Jersey, I am not an advocate of hollow points, especially in a 45. Personally, I think the perfect self defense round in the 45 is the long discontinued Winchester 185gr FMJSWC (punches full diameter wound channels that bleed freely). For me, I will always lean to the 45 for SD, given the choice.
I think that why some of the smaller diameter cartridges are preferred by younger shooters is because they don't take the time to develop the skills that lead to precision. Most often newer shooters why away from decimal targets and lean towards Q type targets.
When I turned 18, I had to get a 1911 in 45, and I learned how to shoot it. I got into NRA 2700 matches, and the prevailing philosophy was to use a 45 for the centerfire stage since the larger bullet diameter helped earn a higher score. When I deployed, I found a 1911 instead of an M9. I found the 1911 in 45 to be very comforting.
Maybe it is because I currently live in the Socialist Republic of New Jersey, I am not an advocate of hollow points, especially in a 45. Personally, I think the perfect self defense round in the 45 is the long discontinued Winchester 185gr FMJSWC (punches full diameter wound channels that bleed freely). For me, I will always lean to the 45 for SD, given the choice.
I think that why some of the smaller diameter cartridges are preferred by younger shooters is because they don't take the time to develop the skills that lead to precision. Most often newer shooters why away from decimal targets and lean towards Q type targets.
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Grayfox
US Veteran
A 9mm might expand. A .45 won't shrink.
Bigger holes are better.
Bigger holes are better.
nachogrande
Member
BIGGER IS BETTER?
I'm waiting for a 50 cal 1911.
I'm waiting for a 50 cal 1911.
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When you hunt dangerous game like a 400+ pound black bear or a 1000 pound male moose, do you use a 30-30 or a 30-06. You go with a round that has more energy and with a greater bullet weight that will hopefully take care of the issue in short order. I hunted with a 180gr 300 Winchester mag. for all dangerous critters.
Getting to the original question of what use is a 45acp. Except for the 180gr 357 mag which has a mean recoil and a longer recovery for a second shot,the 45acp in 185gr+p has equal or more energy and makes a bigger hole which with or without expansion will create a larger and more forceful wound cavity than any other caliber below it along with breaking bones when hit etc. and has a higher round count than most revolvers,it’s also good for going through car doors, windshields etc..
The 45 also has a faster recovery time for that second shot.
Everyone must remember that the idea behind a military round is to wound a solder so it will take not only the one shot out of the fight but also one or two more comrades to take that solder to safety. That is why hollow point ammo is not allowed in combat.
So I would consider someone that was trying to take my life a dangerous critter and I believe the 45acp is the round that would do the job better than any other! JMO
A local Police Department used 45acp 200gr Speer Gold Dot reg. Vel in Glock 21’s for many years.
Be SAFE and Shoot often!
Getting to the original question of what use is a 45acp. Except for the 180gr 357 mag which has a mean recoil and a longer recovery for a second shot,the 45acp in 185gr+p has equal or more energy and makes a bigger hole which with or without expansion will create a larger and more forceful wound cavity than any other caliber below it along with breaking bones when hit etc. and has a higher round count than most revolvers,it’s also good for going through car doors, windshields etc..
The 45 also has a faster recovery time for that second shot.
Everyone must remember that the idea behind a military round is to wound a solder so it will take not only the one shot out of the fight but also one or two more comrades to take that solder to safety. That is why hollow point ammo is not allowed in combat.
So I would consider someone that was trying to take my life a dangerous critter and I believe the 45acp is the round that would do the job better than any other! JMO
A local Police Department used 45acp 200gr Speer Gold Dot reg. Vel in Glock 21’s for many years.
Be SAFE and Shoot often!
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hkcavalier
US Veteran
It's the best commonly available single stack auto cartridge for fighting two-legged critters.
Why the "single stack" qualifier? It's too fat as a double stack for many shooters, but then again so are many 9mms. My wife, for instance, loves her 1911. I like both the 1911 and the P220, probably the most common two single stack .45s in the US (pretty darn sure about the first one).
Why the "single stack" qualifier? It's too fat as a double stack for many shooters, but then again so are many 9mms. My wife, for instance, loves her 1911. I like both the 1911 and the P220, probably the most common two single stack .45s in the US (pretty darn sure about the first one).
BigBill
Absent Comrade
They did offer a 50 cal 1911 decades ago I guess it never caught on.
I think the FBI is mostly full of it. These are the same people that told us in the 1980s that the 9mm was useless and they needed a 40 cal. We wouldn't have the .40 cal if it wasn't for the FBI. Now they tell us that the 40 is insufficient and the 9mm is the ticket.
I don't think the FBI has any more of a clue than anyone else.
I don't think the FBI has any more of a clue than anyone else.
Having stared into the business end of a .45 1911 at nose length, I'm here to say it was very intimidating. Fifty years later, I still remember how cavernous that muzzle was. I don't think a 9mm would have been as impressive. A .45 was my first carry caliber for that reason, although I do switch between .45 and 9mm now.
The FBI agents were a bunch of wimps that could not handle the 40 cal. pistol !!
They backed it off to a wimpy 9mm, to where ALL there "Agents" could qualify.
They backed it off to a wimpy 9mm, to where ALL there "Agents" could qualify.
FBI recruits are no more or less wimpy than any body else. Everybody, from high school cheerleaders to experienced military and law enforcement, handles the Nine better than 10 or .45. It's just a question of mechanics. Less recoil = better shooting.
And if the 9 is wimpy, I guess that makes Americans smarter than the whole rest of the world, who haven't in a hundred years figured out that their 9mm is weak.
Mega handgun power is an American thing. Not that it lacks utility for hunting and certain competition, but anything bigger than 9mm or .38 is mostly overkill.
The FBI has many considerations when selecting a STANDARD cartridge. They've had a history of complaints from non gun "guy" agents who don't like shooting anything, they want the least recoil they have to take. Ayoob had to testify at a Federal hearing about female agents whining about service rounds for the 38 Special back in the early 80's. Those agents always exist somewhere and some of them always complain. At some point management might just see it fit to simply standardize a smaller round and tell the people who want bigger and/or more powerful to just carry their own gun that falls within parameters.
9mm Luger is cheap and easy to come by, 40 S&W isn't dying or on its way out, but its promise is long, long gone. 40 never gained the government or private use that one would like to see to make it a generally more common caliber. The more EVERYONE consumes, the cheaper and more available it gets. 9mm is logistically superior to 40 in every single way. A lot of the decisions could be from that alone. It leads to the death cycle of a cartridge, sport shooters use it less which increases price and helps to make government agencies make the decision to discontinue it, which helps send a signal to the sports shooters to use it less, which decreases popularity and decreases production, which helps government agencies make the decision to drop it..... Commonality breeds commonality in the wold of firearms, obscurity and obsolescence breeds more of the same.
The FBI dumped the 9mm Luger in the 80's because early light weight hollow points and FMJ had real issues in terminal performance. 10mm was being pushed by serous experts like Cooper and the cartridge showed great promise, perhaps grater than the 357 Magnum, in an auto loading cartridge! Interestingly enough, in the report on why they were going to 10mm from 9mm, the FBI stated the 45 ACP was completely and fully adequate, but wanted to go with the new cartridge that had room to improve, as well as more rounds per magazine. To be honest, the FBI was 100% correct in its reasoning then; save for the fact those people who don't like big booming cartridges were going to reject it and complain about it again.
Things that have changed over that period of time till the new decisions was improvements in 9mm Luger bullets, the 10mm being chucked in favor of the 40 because people just won't shoot a hot round. By the time 40 is tamed enough, 9mm Luger isn't far behind. 9mm Luger is holding its own in the market, is cheaper, has less complaints form whiners, and the 40 is going downhill market wise. The decision to go 9mm Luger wasn't that its equal or better in terminal performance, its because other factors, including saving money (a seemingly rare thing with the government).
The whole subjective statement "we can't tell the difference between bullets in those who are shot" is weasel worded, they aren't talking about effectiveness more than they can claim "the doc working the ER can't tell the difference when it pokes his finger in it when the guy arrives on a gurney". Whenever the agency makes a choice it has to defend that choice, so they made the argument to fit the decision. The 10mm decision announcement came with stuff about wounding dogs with 38 and 9mm, not hardly scientific explanations. The FBI didn't go case by case into wounds and their effects to come to their decision. They pulled convoluted statements out of somewhere to justify.
They aren't incompetent paper pushers. I always get sick of that when cartridge wars pop up, before the FBI changed over to 9mm all the 9mm Luger fanbois called the FBI the nastiest names on the earth, called them incompetent and worthless. As soon as the FBI changed to 9mm Luger again, those same people spitting on the FBI held it up to the sky and proclaimed "These are the world's greatest experts, their word is TRUTH and FACT". What a joke. Its a case of declaring people and organizations experts and authorities based on when they side with YOU. Nonsense. Look at the science and be objective, something people just don't like to do. If the FBI switched to 5.7 tommorrow, I can't imagine the insanity on the web boards. Today's experts were yesterday's clueless schmucks, and tomorrow's clueless schmucks too?
Again, the 45 ACP has always been a good choice. Science vindicated it back in the late 80's, its bullets worked adequately back then when 9mm's were still catching up. They are still top performers now. One has to be very picky what 9mm Luger rounds he chooses, 10mm and 45 ACP have great leeway and a whole host of bullets that work. 45 ACP offers good penetration on living tissue while still causing a lot of damage in shape and size. Its not a downgrade form the 9mm Luger at all, it not only stands on its own, shot for shot it is superior.
9mm Luger is cheap and easy to come by, 40 S&W isn't dying or on its way out, but its promise is long, long gone. 40 never gained the government or private use that one would like to see to make it a generally more common caliber. The more EVERYONE consumes, the cheaper and more available it gets. 9mm is logistically superior to 40 in every single way. A lot of the decisions could be from that alone. It leads to the death cycle of a cartridge, sport shooters use it less which increases price and helps to make government agencies make the decision to discontinue it, which helps send a signal to the sports shooters to use it less, which decreases popularity and decreases production, which helps government agencies make the decision to drop it..... Commonality breeds commonality in the wold of firearms, obscurity and obsolescence breeds more of the same.
The FBI dumped the 9mm Luger in the 80's because early light weight hollow points and FMJ had real issues in terminal performance. 10mm was being pushed by serous experts like Cooper and the cartridge showed great promise, perhaps grater than the 357 Magnum, in an auto loading cartridge! Interestingly enough, in the report on why they were going to 10mm from 9mm, the FBI stated the 45 ACP was completely and fully adequate, but wanted to go with the new cartridge that had room to improve, as well as more rounds per magazine. To be honest, the FBI was 100% correct in its reasoning then; save for the fact those people who don't like big booming cartridges were going to reject it and complain about it again.
Things that have changed over that period of time till the new decisions was improvements in 9mm Luger bullets, the 10mm being chucked in favor of the 40 because people just won't shoot a hot round. By the time 40 is tamed enough, 9mm Luger isn't far behind. 9mm Luger is holding its own in the market, is cheaper, has less complaints form whiners, and the 40 is going downhill market wise. The decision to go 9mm Luger wasn't that its equal or better in terminal performance, its because other factors, including saving money (a seemingly rare thing with the government).
The whole subjective statement "we can't tell the difference between bullets in those who are shot" is weasel worded, they aren't talking about effectiveness more than they can claim "the doc working the ER can't tell the difference when it pokes his finger in it when the guy arrives on a gurney". Whenever the agency makes a choice it has to defend that choice, so they made the argument to fit the decision. The 10mm decision announcement came with stuff about wounding dogs with 38 and 9mm, not hardly scientific explanations. The FBI didn't go case by case into wounds and their effects to come to their decision. They pulled convoluted statements out of somewhere to justify.
They aren't incompetent paper pushers. I always get sick of that when cartridge wars pop up, before the FBI changed over to 9mm all the 9mm Luger fanbois called the FBI the nastiest names on the earth, called them incompetent and worthless. As soon as the FBI changed to 9mm Luger again, those same people spitting on the FBI held it up to the sky and proclaimed "These are the world's greatest experts, their word is TRUTH and FACT". What a joke. Its a case of declaring people and organizations experts and authorities based on when they side with YOU. Nonsense. Look at the science and be objective, something people just don't like to do. If the FBI switched to 5.7 tommorrow, I can't imagine the insanity on the web boards. Today's experts were yesterday's clueless schmucks, and tomorrow's clueless schmucks too?
Again, the 45 ACP has always been a good choice. Science vindicated it back in the late 80's, its bullets worked adequately back then when 9mm's were still catching up. They are still top performers now. One has to be very picky what 9mm Luger rounds he chooses, 10mm and 45 ACP have great leeway and a whole host of bullets that work. 45 ACP offers good penetration on living tissue while still causing a lot of damage in shape and size. Its not a downgrade form the 9mm Luger at all, it not only stands on its own, shot for shot it is superior.
Frank46
US Veteran
I have a Beretta 92FS and the less said about it the better. The other 9mm is an old Sig P6 made in West Germany. Yeah it's a single stack with 8 rounds. Having said that I shoot the P6 much better than the Beretta. normally all I use at the range is WWB 115 grain FMJ's. Still got pretty good accuracy. However I bought about 500 rds of the Swiss 124 grain FMJ's sometime back. Found out the P6 loves the 124 grain bullets plus they are loaded to CIP specs which I found out they are a little hotter but do give me better accuracy. Been shooting 45 acp for years. Truth be told wouldn't want to be hit by either of them. I have an aversion to foreign metallic objects hitting me. Speer used to sell a 45 acp load with a 200 JHP called the flying ash tray. Fed in both my 1943 Ithaca and my Springfield Armory 45. Great accuracy from both but the SA one always did better especially with the highly visible iron sights than the Ithaca. This 9mm versus 45acp arguement has been going on for years. next one will be the 4 megawatt pulse rifle versus the 10 megawatt pulse rifle. Frank
V0OBWxZS16
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Recent??? It's been going on for as long as I can remember.
They aren't "two completely different cartridges." They were designed for the same purpose within a few years of each other and are two of the most common defense/duty semi-auto cartridges available. Comparing and contrasting them is inevitable.
Still the King?
In a Gold Cup or Government Model .... works for me.
I always carry FMJ 230s...... or whatever is loaded
In a Gold Cup or Government Model .... works for me.
I always carry FMJ 230s...... or whatever is loaded
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I'm waiting for a 50 cal 1911.
Why wait? Guncrafter Industries has the 50 caliber semi-automatic pistol ammo, complete pistols, and Glock conversions.
https://www.guncrafterindustries.com/
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