.45 ACP: What is it good for? Absolutely nothing?

[BigBill]

It took me 3 decades of owning a 1911 in 45acp to finally purchase a 9mm pistol. I just wasn’t interested in the 9mm round. I chose a cz85db. It’s ok but it’s no 45acp.

 

[max503]

It took me 3 decades of owning a 1911 in 45acp to finally purchase a 9mm pistol. I just wasn’t interested in the 9mm round. I chose a cz85db. It’s ok but it’s no 45acp.

Good to hear that. I bought my first 45 about 35 years ago and still haven't bought a 9mm. I do have a colt 380 but that doesn't count. We're talking full size guns here.

 

[Jimmy4570]

The FBI, sadly, including their firearms training unit and ballistics lab, have just gotten so politicized and bureaucratized that I've little faith in what they've been doing for the past fifteen years or so. They shoot gel- a far cry from real flesh, whether dead or alive and pumping- so I can't see placing much value on test results there. Honestly, there needs be another iteration of the Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904. There's no good reason why live tissue testing on bovines or swine- although GITMO detainees and death row inmates would be better- could not or should not be repeated today. That would be the only properly and objectively effective way to make a real determination as to true ballistic effectiveness of cartridge and projectile combinations in the modern era.

As far as I'm concerned, the physics that somehow magically transformed the 9x19 into something magical would also have carried over into all other calibers as well.

The variables involved in street shootings are too manifold and I think statistically invalid to draw the conclusion that "modern" projectiles have brought the 9x19 to parity in effectiveness with heavier and/or faster cartridges such as the big bore auto and revolver cartridges and the magnums.

There are also intangible considerations I think certain- especially larger, more bureaucratic- organizations tend to ignore. That is the level of confidence, elan and pride of its members. I am compelled to carry a SIG 229R in 9x19, soon to be a G-19M. I have, at this point in my life, fired both those pistols, to the tune of tens of thousands of rounds more than any of my personal revolvers or semi auto pistols of Browning and Czech lineage. Despite that, I can still hit subjectively more quickly, more easily and feel more confident with my .357, .44 or .45 revolvers or .45 self loaders. Splits matter more in the games. The speed of delivering follow up shots with the 9x19 I think rather inconsequential in field shooting. Despite my abundance of time with multiple platforms in 9x19 I still feel more confident and prefer to carry either medium or large frame magnum or big bore revolvers or single action big bore autos.

 

[sandog]

The .45 is easier to supress, this Camp Carbine sounds like shooting .22 CB caps. But unlike CB caps, 230 grain bullets kick up a lot of dirt !
Cases come out sooty and land 50 feet away.

 

[03hemi]

Guns are like women and cars, I love em all.

 

[jupiter1]

Honestly, there needs be another iteration of the Thompson-LaGarde tests of 1904. There's no good reason why live tissue testing on bovines or swine- although GITMO detainees and death row inmates would be better- could not or should not be repeated today. That would be the only properly and objectively effective way to make a real determination as to true ballistic effectiveness of cartridge and projectile combinations in the modern era.

There is another way.

Nowadays, "ballistic effectiveness" has come to mean different things to different people. Many equate ballistic effectiveness to the size and shape, expansion or lack of expansion, of a projectile. That distracts us from what we really want to know; effect on the target (incapacitation). That is what should be measured.

Although often brought up, Thompson LaGarde tests were not very scientific.

But, in these times, we now have an opportunity to get closer to what actually happens. This is now possible because of the widespread use of police body cameras. Collect the caliber, load, medical reports etc. of every police video and we should be able to get a good estimate of the performance of the service cartridges.This would certainly beat the thousands of questionable anecdotes that feed the never ending debate on this topic.

This could answer the question of what the .45ACP is good for.

 

[10ring]

This is an excerpt from the original "FBI Notes" regarding the switch to 10mm (and later 40S&W). They rated the 45ACP as a close second to the 10mm...

The funny thing about this is that the 10mm that scored so well was an "FBI" load that is available today as the .40 S&W 180 grain, except that today's .40 round actually moves faster than the FBI 10mm round that was tested, and the technology of bullet design has substantially improved in the 30 years since.

Not to say I don't like the .45. I shoot .45s often and enjoy them. I would not have a problem carrying one defensively or for law enforcement.

 

[Echo40]

I don't think that Ballistics Testing in general will ever produce indisputable evidence of the overall effectiveness of a cartridge/firearm, especially when there are folks out there who nitpick every last detail and ignore all practical evidence in favor of anecdotal evidence.

Seriously, think Bear Threads. You'd imagine that with all the documented cases of self-defense against Bears, the subject would have been put to rest by now, yet everytime the subject comes up you end up with an out of control caliber debate in which nobody can ever agree on anything at all. Forget about the question of what is the most optimal firearm/cartridge to use against Bears, folks can't even agree on the bare minimum!

Honestly, even in the event in which some radical bill were to be passed that makes it legal to use death row inmates, serial killers, sex offenders, etc as live ballistics test medium, and a wide variety of testing were performed on said criminals using every variable imaginable including ones which are highly improbable, you'd still end up with folks arguing over the results, coming up with some crazy, hair-brained scenario in which every last round tested could potentially fail. ("What if the attacker is a Cyborg Vampire Vulcan Ninja wielding the Infinity Gauntlet, huh?!")

We have enough documented cases of shootings as it is to have formed a reliable baseline for ballistic effectiveness. Sooner or later people are just going to have to accept the reality that there is no ultimate one-size-fits-all cartridge that will instantly incapacitate an attacker.
Pardon me for repeating a tired statement, but shot placement will always be the most decisive factor in defensive shootings.

 

[Protected One]

.45 ACP is good for anything most common carry calibers are good for.

 

[wbraswell]

Contrary to the beliefs of many tactiphiles, the .45 auto will kill anything now that it would 100 years ago. Biplanes moving at less than 100 mph may be hard to find, though.

 

[double-dipper]

Well Mr. Dirty Harry Callahan if you need to ask that question you probably don't own a 1911 or a revolver chambered in .45 ACP or maybe you just haven't shot one much . I suggest you shoot one and you will see for yourself. I love my 1911's and shoot them as often as I can.

 

[Echo40]

Well Mr. Dirty Harry Callahan if you need to ask that question you probably don't own a 1911 or a revolver chambered in .45 ACP or maybe you just haven't shot one much . I suggest you shoot one and you will see for yourself. I love my 1911's and shoot them as often as I can.

It was less about me asking a question for the sake of an informative answer pertaining to information/experience which I lack and more for the sake of being enlightened to the community's opinion on the subject.

That being said, I could most certainly use more firearms chambered in .45. Sadly, I've yet to shoot a 1911, but I plan to rectify that ASAP. I'd also really like to own either a Ruger Redhawk, S&W 625, or Governor since I love .45 Long Colt, so it would be great to have a revolver that can shoot both .45LC and .45 ACP as opposed to having to pack two separate revolvers to the range for each cartridge.

 

[delcrossv]

They're fun to shoot with a reasonable amount of recoil. Also the ammo is fairly cheap.

And my teenage daughter likes 'em!

 

[Dave T]

I carried one model or other of 1911 (45 ACP of course) since I got off probation in April of 1974 until I retired and for something over 10 years after that. Arthritis in my hands (swollen thumb knuckle) made me give up the 1911 for the wider grip and softer recoil of 45 ACP Glocks (G30 and lately a G30S). Now with the arthritis getting even worse I am about to shift over to a 4" 325 PD for carry (no dual recoil spring to manipulate).


After all these years carrying 45 ACPs, loading and shooting 45 ACPs, even depending on them in several armed encounters while wearing a badge, you will have to forgive me if I listen to all the claims of the wonderfulness of the 9mm some what skeptically. Yea, I'm getting old and cranky and stuck in my ways. So be it! (smile)


Dave

 

[Laketime]

You probably think the .44 Magnum is useless too .

 

[Grayfox]

Just for the record, I never said there was anything wrong with the 9mm. I just never really warmed up to it. I'm quite aware that it is a capable round that many people carry and use. I admit, it does work. Its just not really my thing.
In all honesty, when it comes to middle bores, I'd much rather carry a revolver in .38 or .357 than a 9mm pistol. Actually, I have a couple of 380 autos that a carry when I don't have a 45. But that's primarily due to size, convenience and conditions.
I do own about a half dozen 9mm pistols. But I never set out to buy one. Its always been a case of I bought a pistol I liked and it just happened to be in 9mm.
Now I do own a bunch of 1911s. Its probably my favorite handgun. And most of them are in .45acp because that's the way I like 'em. BUT I do not own a 1911 in 9mm. That's one line I just can't seem to get myself to cross. Just feels like blasphemy.
However, I do own several in the real 1911 middle bore caliber: 38 Super!

 

[stansdds]

Now I do own a bunch of 1911s. Its probably my favorite handgun. And most of them are in .45acp because that's the way I like 'em. BUT I do not own a 1911 in 9mm. That's one line I just can't seem to get myself to cross. Just feels like blasphemy.
However, I do own several in the real 1911 middle bore caliber: 38 Super!

I, too, have several 1911 pattern pistols, all but one are chambered in 45 ACP. The one that is not is in 10mm Auto. That is also the only 1911 I have that I can reliably hand cycle full magazines of empty shells through the action.

 

[Protected One]

i could add one more comment. years ago a guy i knew, deputy, had to fire a 230gr ball out of his 45 at a bad guy in a double wide trailer. it went through the guy, a wall, and hit his partner on the other side. They will penetrate.

This is why I'm a hollow point user for defensive purposes - in every caliber I own.
I have seen people speak of the unreliability of them feeding properly in 1911's, so I tested a number of different brands before settling on 230gr Winchester White Box.

 

[Rick_A]

There's nothing wrong with having choices.
20190328_074827 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
20160724_072007 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

The forty mostly stays at home in the night stand.
20190328_104810 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr

Run what ya brung.

 

[Echo40]

You probably think the .44 Magnum is useless too .

Thank you very much for taking the time to read the OP from beginning to end and responding directly to it.

You'd be surprised at how many folks these days are too lazy to actually read any further than the thread title, then post some sort of knee-jerk response that doesn't have anything to do with the thread itself, thus making a total fool of themselves in the process.

I'd also like to take this opportunity to congratulate you on your impeccable deductive reasoning that someone named Dirty Harry Callahan would hate .44 Magnum.