DanRod, not sure if you are up on your agencies history, but thought you may appreciate this. It is John Helms, retired SIS, 4506 from SIS. It is engraved 1 of 74 and the the SIS logo. It was one of a pair he carried. John is one of the finest cops to ever pin an LAPD badge on and a gunfighting legend in both D Platoon and SIS.
4506 on Duty - Part 2
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I do look and I pay attention to all of the equipment carried by and used by LEO's. I also watch "Live PD" and it's a sea of Glocks with the occasional M1911-A1.
Old Corp
Member
My agency's first auto was the S&W M1076 with the Federal 10mm 180 gr. 'LITE' load. It was our issue hardware from ~1989-1995.
The 1076 had been discontinued by S&W there towards the end, but would still supply a few dozen to us as needed, but cost was much greater.
Replaced by the M4566 for uniform and the CS45 for Detectives.
I had each for a time, but knowing I'd be given my service weapon upon retirement, opted to dump the CS for the 4566 in the last year or so.
The 4566 was 100% reliable, but as retirement time approached the department was looking at replacing it with something poly.
Young guys on the line referred to the 4566 as 'the brick', due to the weight and all the increase of stuff on the duty belt.
I helped test the M&P .45 mid-size and that model was adopted just after I retired (2008).
Having large hands, I liked the Hogue rubber grips on the 4566, especially helpful when hot and sweaty.
I still occasionally carry the 4566, we saw a lot together. But, still more of a 1911 guy as far as autos go - and SA autos were a definite no-no where I worked. There was no explanation that would garner it's favor.
Be safe. Always go home.
The 1076 had been discontinued by S&W there towards the end, but would still supply a few dozen to us as needed, but cost was much greater.
Replaced by the M4566 for uniform and the CS45 for Detectives.
I had each for a time, but knowing I'd be given my service weapon upon retirement, opted to dump the CS for the 4566 in the last year or so.
The 4566 was 100% reliable, but as retirement time approached the department was looking at replacing it with something poly.
Young guys on the line referred to the 4566 as 'the brick', due to the weight and all the increase of stuff on the duty belt.
I helped test the M&P .45 mid-size and that model was adopted just after I retired (2008).
Having large hands, I liked the Hogue rubber grips on the 4566, especially helpful when hot and sweaty.
I still occasionally carry the 4566, we saw a lot together. But, still more of a 1911 guy as far as autos go - and SA autos were a definite no-no where I worked. There was no explanation that would garner it's favor.
Be safe. Always go home.
Nyeti I am GREEN with envy!
Please add my name to the list of those wanting a copy of your coffee table book. You are writing one, aren't you? If not, PLEASE do!Regards 18DAI
That is the plan....
Hey , I bet Ive had that gun on my bench, I think I detail cleaned it at one time.
John Helms, all I can say is Gentleman Warrior. All of the SIS guys were special , before Bratton got there. No pretenses in that crowd , it was nice to know they were on your side.
Nyeti if you are planning a book please add my name to the list also, Thanks. Bob
John Helms, all I can say is Gentleman Warrior. All of the SIS guys were special , before Bratton got there. No pretenses in that crowd , it was nice to know they were on your side.
Nyeti if you are planning a book please add my name to the list also, Thanks. Bob
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Yes, a vast majority of Glocks, with one 1911 carried by a SWAT type officer and a Sig P 320 (both I think from Salinas, CA PD).
Yes, it is the police officers of Salinas, CA. I also noticed that they deploy rifles more than most other jurisdictions that Live PD films.
OP
DanRod_LA
Member
WHOA!!! Almost couldn't believe it when I saw the post. Absolute legends, the man and the gun. I have read as much as I can on him online. Well before my time but what he and others developed is still taught today. Would've been great to meet him. From what I understand, most of what we are taught comes from the Gun Site academy and introduced into LAPD training in the 1980's through Helms and other instructors.
As a small progress report. Picked up 4 more magazines for the 4506. Didn't get to shoot it this week as I have my shot gun slug recertification this coming week and have been practicing my drills with my Remington 870. Also wanting on some new duty gear from Don Hume! Wife ordered me a whole new set up for our 2nd anniversary.
Great to see all the responses and can't wait to read more, especially history lessons and past experiences.
snowman.45
Member
nyeti, please add my name to any book list.
Good to know. I was at a LE shooting match a few years ago and a younger team from LAPD had no idea who Larry Mudgett,John Helms, or Scotty Reitz were. It was absolutely sad. I have a copy from an old post here from Helms on the S&W auto's I ll Post.
This is a copy of an old post on this forum.
This thread is in response to a forum members request regarding S&W .45 use,
In the summer of 1985 I was assigned to a twenty man surveillance unit[SIS]. Prior to this I had spent nearly eight years as a SWAT operator and tactical firearms instructor.
The surveillance teams primary handguns were S&W .38 revolvers. SIS had experimented with the Colt 1911a1 .45. Several members told me they didn't feel comfortable carrying a handgun "cocked and locked". Besides my full time duties as a surveillance detective, I became the SIS firearms and tactics instructor. In late 1985 or early 1986 I obtained a prototype S&W Model 645 for testing purposes.
One or two training sessions later "almost everyone" agreed this was a .45 pistol they wanted to carry! Permission was granted by the "brass" and 18 members of SIS purchased S&W Model 645's for duty use.
Members of the unit went through an intensive training and qualification process before the weapons were deployed in the field.
Sidenote: SIS had "flirted" with the 1911's because no one felt the .38 special was an adequate caliber if your primary job was to confront armed criminals. The shotgun got used alot!
The first field use of the Smith .45's was in November of 1986. SIS confronted several armed kidnap suspects-one went the hard way, the others were captured and the victim was recovered. After this incident everyone had night sights installed on their guns.
SIS continued to carry the various models of S&W .45's-645,4506,4566 and 4516's until about 2003 when they switched to Glock .45's.
The various smith .45's with one exception worked very well. Members of the unit were required to fire 100-200 rds per month in training. The only model we had regular problems with was the 4516. S&W replaced the original 4516's we had [approx. 10 guns] with new ones. We had fewer problems with the second batch, but they still didn't function as well as the other models.
We had only two shootings with the 4516's, that I recall. In one incident the gun worked fine and the other the gun malfunctioned. We had several shootings with the 4" and 5" guns with no problems.
The S&W stainless .45's served us well for many years.
Stay safe, John Helms
This thread is in response to a forum members request regarding S&W .45 use,
In the summer of 1985 I was assigned to a twenty man surveillance unit[SIS]. Prior to this I had spent nearly eight years as a SWAT operator and tactical firearms instructor.
The surveillance teams primary handguns were S&W .38 revolvers. SIS had experimented with the Colt 1911a1 .45. Several members told me they didn't feel comfortable carrying a handgun "cocked and locked". Besides my full time duties as a surveillance detective, I became the SIS firearms and tactics instructor. In late 1985 or early 1986 I obtained a prototype S&W Model 645 for testing purposes.
One or two training sessions later "almost everyone" agreed this was a .45 pistol they wanted to carry! Permission was granted by the "brass" and 18 members of SIS purchased S&W Model 645's for duty use.
Members of the unit went through an intensive training and qualification process before the weapons were deployed in the field.
Sidenote: SIS had "flirted" with the 1911's because no one felt the .38 special was an adequate caliber if your primary job was to confront armed criminals. The shotgun got used alot!
The first field use of the Smith .45's was in November of 1986. SIS confronted several armed kidnap suspects-one went the hard way, the others were captured and the victim was recovered. After this incident everyone had night sights installed on their guns.
SIS continued to carry the various models of S&W .45's-645,4506,4566 and 4516's until about 2003 when they switched to Glock .45's.
The various smith .45's with one exception worked very well. Members of the unit were required to fire 100-200 rds per month in training. The only model we had regular problems with was the 4516. S&W replaced the original 4516's we had [approx. 10 guns] with new ones. We had fewer problems with the second batch, but they still didn't function as well as the other models.
We had only two shootings with the 4516's, that I recall. In one incident the gun worked fine and the other the gun malfunctioned. We had several shootings with the 4" and 5" guns with no problems.
The S&W stainless .45's served us well for many years.
Stay safe, John Helms
That members of the PISTOL TEAM didn't know who Reitz, Helms or Mudgett were is.......tragic.
All the historical knowledge.....not to mention the shooting and tactical experience that could be gained by meeting and training with these men.....
What a waste. Very sad. Regards 18DAI
All the historical knowledge.....not to mention the shooting and tactical experience that could be gained by meeting and training with these men.....
What a waste. Very sad. Regards 18DAI
T. McIntyre
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Followed a link to this thread, great stuff!
Wanted to share a pic.
The 4506 on the left is a very late version (and one that I ended up asking DAI about some questions I had). The other is something I feel super fortunate to have come across. It is a 4506-1 that has not been fired since it left the factory. The young man I got it from inherited it. He inherited 2, kept one for himself and sold me the other. I dove all the way across our rather large state to pick it up. A rather pretty long round trip, but what the heck!
Earlier this year I had Milt Sparks Holsters build me a 55BN for the Decocker Only version that I shoot and carry. Love this gun! Winter has arrived and this is a great gun winter time CCW!
OP, I hope your 4506 keeps you safe. A classic gun no doubt.
Wanted to share a pic.
The 4506 on the left is a very late version (and one that I ended up asking DAI about some questions I had). The other is something I feel super fortunate to have come across. It is a 4506-1 that has not been fired since it left the factory. The young man I got it from inherited it. He inherited 2, kept one for himself and sold me the other. I dove all the way across our rather large state to pick it up. A rather pretty long round trip, but what the heck!
Earlier this year I had Milt Sparks Holsters build me a 55BN for the Decocker Only version that I shoot and carry. Love this gun! Winter has arrived and this is a great gun winter time CCW!
OP, I hope your 4506 keeps you safe. A classic gun no doubt.
Very nice T.McIntyre!!
I would have driven a bit for that beauty too. Mrs.18 was just asking me what I'd like for Christmas this year. Gonna have to show her that fine Milt Sparks holster.
I have been a very good boy this year. Left hand in black, for me. Enjoy those fine 4506-1s! Regards 18DAI
I would have driven a bit for that beauty too.
Mrs.18 was just asking me what I'd like for Christmas this year. Gonna have to show her that fine Milt Sparks holster.I have been a very good boy this year. Left hand in black, for me.
Enjoy those fine 4506-1s! Regards 18DAIT. McIntyre
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Milt Sparks rigs have been a "go-to" outfit for the bride for 20+ years when she needs a gift for me. Usually she just calls and asks what I already have on order. That helps a bunch!
In fact earlier this year I was graciously invited to their 50th anniversary shoot over in the Boise Valley. I wore the belt and holster I got married in under my tuxedo jacket back in 1999. Still fits!
The owner's wife sent me this pic:
Mr. Clint Smith had us sign a book that Jeff Cooper had given him many years ago, when he worked for him. I was very humbled to say the least to have such an honor to sign it and be part of such an event.
Long story short, Being an Idahoan, an Elmer Keith fan and supporter of such things, Milt Sparks is by far my favorite maker! The VP is also a long time friend and all around great guy!
Gotta support my Idaho Brothers! My 1911 (shown in the pic above at the shoot), a Baer PII was even wearing grips from Idaho. Rod Herrett's shop produced the grips in his shop in Twin Falls!
The pic below was a birthday gift from earlier this year. A classic Summer Special, with a 50th Anniversary stamp. Love it!
In fact earlier this year I was graciously invited to their 50th anniversary shoot over in the Boise Valley. I wore the belt and holster I got married in under my tuxedo jacket back in 1999. Still fits!
The owner's wife sent me this pic:
Mr. Clint Smith had us sign a book that Jeff Cooper had given him many years ago, when he worked for him. I was very humbled to say the least to have such an honor to sign it and be part of such an event.
Long story short, Being an Idahoan, an Elmer Keith fan and supporter of such things, Milt Sparks is by far my favorite maker! The VP is also a long time friend and all around great guy!
Gotta support my Idaho Brothers! My 1911 (shown in the pic above at the shoot), a Baer PII was even wearing grips from Idaho. Rod Herrett's shop produced the grips in his shop in Twin Falls!
The pic below was a birthday gift from earlier this year. A classic Summer Special, with a 50th Anniversary stamp. Love it!
The 3rd Generation autos are great. My father was Idaho State Police for twenty-one years (1973-1994). In 1991 ISP transitioned from the Model 65 revolver to the 4586. Dad carried the 4516-1 as his off-duty piece. I inherited them and ,of course, they are both keepers. Tremendous shooters. I recently found a third magazine for the 4516-1 for $20.00. Couldn't believe my luck. Never even tried to haggle with the seller. Just found a twenty dollar bill and paid it. It's a shame that Smith stopped making them, but times and tastes change I suppose.
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