.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

[horthog52]

Duh!

I forgot the most important part. Serial # 14337

 

[Hondo44]

Thanks, just double checking, a 2nd model not a TL, correct?

 

[horthog52]

That is correct.

 

[steelslaver]

Hondo

I have got the 2nd model I recently purchase in hand. Kind of interesting. Excellent shape and retains very nice blue and all letters and markings very sharp, perfect screw heads etc. Extremely clean bore and chambers. Has not been reamed, inside chambers still dark blue and almost no wear on recoil shield or ejector rod. Don't think very many rounds been through this one. It does have a few small light scratches and minor dings here and there. Grip show very little wear but a few minor dings. Not perfect, but in great shape for a 100 year old revolver. I am a happy camper with this one.

Anyway the Markings. S&W .455. on Left side of barrel. 2 lines on top of barrel address and patent dates. crossed pennants on rear of cylinder face and on leftt side of frame where barrel goes through. Broad in and out of service arrows on yoke. On frame above grip a small arrow pointing up then under that some thing I can't make out possibly a crown then under that a E then under that II, S&W trade mark on side plated.
Nicely stamped on bottom of left grip is Holiver Seal. Serial number on butt, cylinder face, back of yoke and barrel is 56050. Inside yoke cut and on yoke is stamped 456 which I assume is an assemblers number. No other markings.

Did a search for Holiver Seal, but came up empty.

Pictures tomorrow when I get light box setup and pick up the sweet 5 screw 4" K22 that my FFL guy showed me when I picked this up.

 

[Skeetr57]

Jim: I have 2nd model #31776. LH side of barrel roll marked "Smith & Wesson .455. Brit acceptance stamp on knuckle of frame, crossed pennants on frame and rear of cylinder, as well as in and out broad arrows. The gun shows no sign of being fired, as the breech face and front of the cylinder show no powder rings or wear to the bluing. Many small dings and scratches in the finish due to rough handling during shipment.

 

[steelslaver]

Jim 56050 is the correct number for the 455 2nd model I just picked up

 

[model3sw]

Jim,

Always happy to help. I have the following:

Mark II, 1st Triple-Lock .455 SN: 930 cylinder measures 1+5/8", Barrel top: 2 line address newest date Feb '06
no roll stamps what so ever on sides of barrel, (no S&W, no caliber marking), no SN inside recess for ejector rod on barrel.
Cylinder SN: 930 matches

Mark II, 2nd, .455 SN: 27536, cylinder also measures 1+5/8". Barrel Top: 2 line address newest date Feb '06
Left side of Barrel "SMITH & WESSON .455" all nos. match

1+5/8" is by steel tape rule not micrometer so figure nominal (+/-) variance. If you need me to mic the cylinders, just ask.

Both are in original .455 configuration, properly "proofed".

Chamfers inside cylinders are visibly pronounced at proper depth, nice & shiny inside chambers.

Triple lock is at least a 90%+, 2nd Model is at least 95%+ condition.

Both have been in the family collection at least 20 years likely closer to 30 years.

 

[Hondo44]

Sal,

Thx. Are these cartridge marked on the barrel?

 

[model3sw]

Sal,

Thx. Are these cartridge marked on the barrel?

Jim, perhaps I was a bit long-winded in my prior post, however ... as posted ... the Triple lock #930 is NOT caliber marked nor are there any markings, what so ever, on the right or left barrel sides. Also, no serial number in the ejector rod recess area of the barrel where you would expect the SN to be but barrel appears original blue matching the rest of the finish on the revolver. On the top side of the barrel, it has a 2 line address, roll stamp, ending with the newest patent date of Feb '06.

the Mark II 2nd Model also has a 2 line barrel address on top, with the newest patent date of Feb '06, also. This one (Mark II 2nd, .455 HE 2nd) "is" marked "SMITH & WESSON .455" on the left side of the barrel. The entire scroll here (left side of barrel), phrased: "SMITH & WESSON .455" is not centered mid-barrel as might be expected, rather, it is much off centered toward the rear, ending up just a few millimeters before the barrel starts to flare wider.

Anything you need, Email me is best. I can get around to pix if you need just may take me a day or two to make time to photograph them.

 

[Hondo44]

My apologies, I must have stared at the eclipse too long w/o glasses!
Sorry, I tried to double check and STILL missed both of them! There's a short between eyeballs and brain.

Two beauties Sal, thanks very much!

 

[Stumpnov]

Candian 455

I have a 455 Mkii that was delivered to the Canadians in WW1, been treated a little rough but still in original configuration. It came with 1917 grips, which I have left on due to lack of originals and not knowing the history. Any help in tracking down the unit history would be appreciated.
Stump

profile
Canadian markings
Unit Markings
Butt

 

[deadin]

Just in case you haven't picked up the details on my TL:

1st Model (group 2) serial 718, (probably in first shipment from Remington to England in 1914). All original and in excellent condition except for the owners name engraved on left side.
It went home to Australia with the original owner after the war, so no extraneous commercial stampings. No markings on side of barrel. (Just the standard stuff on the top.)

Let me know if you need anything else......

 

[Hondo44]

Thank you Dean!

I still don't have a single entry in Group 1; the first 666 military guns or the 146 commercials. I've seen a few on this forum. I guess I'll have to search and scan old threads.

 

[CptCurl]

Jim,

I commend your effort to catalog these models. Let me chime in with two that I own.

The first it a Triple Lock, s/n 12787.

This revolver is unaltered in any way. As you can see, the left side of the barrel is marked:

SMITH & WESSON .455.

It is equipped with a butt swivel, which letters original to the gun. The serial number is to the side.

Here's how it letters:

So it is in your category 3.B. "44 Hand Ejector-1st Model Triple Lock: 691 assembled at the end of the British contract but sold on the commercial market 1916-17, numbered in the 44 Spl # series ~ 12,XXX range."

************************************
************************************


Next is my Second Model .455. It bears s/n 69234 and appears to have been sold commercially. It remiains unaltered in any way and has no martial markings or British proofs at all. Roy reports that it shipped December 1917, which along with its commercial characteristics seems to be a dead giveaway that it was in the large shipement to Shapleigh Hardware.

The left side of the barrel is marked:

SMITH & WESSON .455.

The right side of the barrel has no roll mark.

It is equipped with a butt swivel, which appears to be original to the gun. The serial number is to the side.

I have not lettered this revolver.

I displayed a lot of images of this revolver at this thread: S&W .455 Mk. II Hand Ejector 2nd Model #69234


Curl

 

[Hondo44]

Curl,

Two stunningly beautiful examples!

Thank you!

 

[frankynohankypanky]

Thank you Dean!

I still don't have a single entry in Group 1; the first 666 military guns or the 146 commercials. I've seen a few on this forum. I guess I'll have to search and scan old threads.

Here is one of the 666, serial no. 8493

 

[Hondo44]

Thank you Franky.

Another real stunner, this one looks like 100% and un-refinished!

Our first group 1. serial # on the known # list of the first 666 for the military in several shipments across the pond.

But does not appear to have any martial stampings, is that correct?

If so we're making new history here!

 

[AlanDavid]

Does 8493 have any calbre markings on the barrel ?

I am unable to see any in the photo.

Regards


AlanD
Sydney

 

[frankynohankypanky]

Thank you Franky.

Another real stunner, this one looks like 100% and un-refinished!

Our first group 1. serial # on the known # list of the first 666 for the military in several shipments across the pond.

But does not appear to have any martial stampings, is that correct?

If so we're making new history here!

Jim, this gun has seen very little use but does have some finish issues as the photo below shows. Tried everything but couldn't clean it up.
It has crossed pennants on what the British call the breech ring and back of the cylinder plus the usual marks on left of the frame at top of the blackstrap, but no other military markings.

Frank.

 

[frankynohankypanky]

Here's a 2nd Model Royal Flying Corp revolver embellished by Alexander Henry and Co. Of Edinburgh, Scotland, for a Major J. Johnson who may have been Canadian. It bears the palindromic serial no. 47474. Extra cylinder in .45 Colt.
Barrel marking is obvious. Other side of topstrap bears the inscription, "For King and Country."
I'm chasing up details on more guns and will post in the next day or so.

Frank.

 

[frankynohankypanky]

Does 8493 have any calbre markings on the barrel ?

I am unable to see any in the photo.

Regards


AlanD
Sydney

Alan, no calibre markings on the barrel.

 

[Hondo44]

Jim, this gun has seen very little use but does have some finish issues as the photo below shows. Tried everything but couldn't clean it up.
It has crossed pennants on what the British call the breech ring and back of the cylinder plus the usual marks on left of the frame at top of the blackstrap, but no other military markings.

Frank.

It looks like some chemical reaction. Above the 3rd lock cam plate it looks like old adhesive adhering to the surface. But I doubt it's on the surface, more likely the bluing is actually etched, right?

Lower down it appears the same thing has faded the bluing, but to a much lesser degree than the upper spot. It's a mystery to me how the damage is so localized.

Above the bad spot, the frame around the barrel threads sticks out much farther and yet, undamaged. Like something was adhered to the frame on that square spot like a shelf # tag, or label (or ?) glued on. And the adhesive reacted with the blue and metal underneath. And the lower spot was just from being in proximity to the square spot and whatever was stuck to it. As if the gun was stored in a rack upside down and volatile fumes emanated upwards from the square spot to fade the blue on the lower frame.

Did it have any rust on the square spot before cleaning?

If it was in front of me, I'd study the damage with my 80 x glass.


If it is something on the surface of the bluing:

Have you tried Goo Gone? Acetone?
Could it be remnants of solder as if something was attached there with a poor solder job ('cold joint')?

All in all, still a beautiful gun.

 

[Hondo44]

Here's a 2nd Model Royal Flying Corp revolver embellished by Alexander Henry and Co. Of Edinburgh, Scotland, for a Major J. Johnson who may have been Canadian. It bears the palindromic serial no. 47474. Extra cylinder in .45 Colt.
Barrel marking is obvious. Other side of topstrap bears the inscription, "For King and Country."
I'm chasing up details on more guns and will post in the next day or so.

Frank.

Dang, what a cool combination! Another gorgeous example that does not look refinished in any way. Crisp edges, no purple parts, and the trigger rebound slide pin is still domed like originally on all pre war guns.

Do I have the serial # for the project list?

The 45 Colt marking on the cyl is very professional looking as is the inscription on top strap. Many of these overseas guns were worked on by fine shotgun makers. Is that who Alexander Henry and Co. is?

Is the 45 Colt Cyl serial #d to the gun like the 455 cyl?

 

[frankynohankypanky]

Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).

 

[frankynohankypanky]

Dang, what a cool combination! Another gorgeous example that does not look refinished in any way. Crisp edges, no purple parts, and the trigger rebound slide pin is still domed like originally on all pre war guns.

Do I have the serial # for the project list?

The 45 Colt marking on the cyl is very professional looking as is the inscription on top strap. Many of these overseas guns were worked on by fine shotgun makers. Is that who Alexander Henry and Co. is?

Is the 45 Colt Cyl serial #d to the gun like the 455 cyl?

Jim, I'm sure this gun was refinished by Alex. Henry.
Alexander Henry was amongst the best of the British gunmakers and mainly known for their rifles, both singles and doubles. This revolver was a military shipment and the letter says nothing about the extras. I would think the embellishment was done after the war.
The cylinders are both numbered alike and the .45 Colt cylinder is .010" shorter with the chambers counterbored for the thicker rim.
The Latin expression "Servabo Fidem" means "I Will Keep the Faith".
Frank.

 

[Hondo44]

Frank,

All entered. Thanks very much!

#47474 is just an awesomely unique convertible!

You have the distinction of having at least one 455 example in each of 3 categories of the database: 1., 3A, & 3B.

 

[steelslaver]

Jim, a few more for your database;

1st Models;

#5719; "Smith & Wesson .455". A gorgeous Commercial but not listed anywhere as such (no letter). Shipped May 1915. Birmingham proofs very neatly applied to each cylinder flute and to the barrel.
#8493; No caliber markings. See post 106 above.
#12847; "Smith & Wesson .455". Shipped Dec. 1917, probably to Shapleigh Hardware. Roy Jinks advised me this would letter as chambered for .455 Colt.
#15015; "Smith & Wesson .455".

2nd Models;

#15877 and #15980 are marked "Smith & Wesson".
Following are marked "Smith & Wesson .455", #'s 68103, 39155, 39645, 32061 and 47474 (see post above re 47474).

WOW. That is quite a bunch of 455s. Congratulations on your collection of them.

 

[AlanDavid]

Wilkinson Sword Co

The U.K. agent for Smith and Wesson at this time was Chas Osborne & Co, Gunmaker. He had a factory in Birmingham and a retail shop in London. He was friends with Mr Wesson so that's how he became the agent for S&W in the United Kingdom. Chas Osborne went out of business around 1928. S&W were approached by Le Perssone & Co of 99 Cannon Street , London (a wholesaling and agency firm) to become there UK agent but were only prepared to give S&W one or two pages in their catalogue, so S&W said , no thanks. A. G. Parker which went on to become Parker Hale were appointed as the sole UK agents for S&W and remained so up to at least the 1970's.
This being the case I have never understood why Wilkinson Sword Co purchased the surplus 123 .455 revolvers in October 1914. Perhaps Chas Osborne turned the offer down and Wilkinson's picked them up by default?
Unfortunately, the Chas Osborne & Co records appear to be lost, I have put a bit of effort into trying to locate them, but the consensus is they no longer exist - pity.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney

Further to my previous post. Just found a comment in the British trade newspaper 'Arms & Explosives' for January 1915, where Wilkinson Sword Company announce they 'have taken over the wholesale agency for Smith and Wesson revolvers and pistols in this country.' So that ties in with the purchase of 123 revolvers that when to them in October 1914. Mystery solved.
Just need to establish the time frame for Parker Hale Ltd taking over from Wilkinson Sword Co.
Regards
AlanD
Sydney

 

[Texas Star]

Wilkinson Sword also had a close relationship with Webley, who made special models for them. The Models of Wilkinson-Webleys of 1905 and 1911 were probably the best, most practical Webley revolvers made. They had bright blue finishes and honed actions and I think differed from the later MK VI in having a button to push to remove the cylinder for cleaning. Grips were checkered walnut with a gold medallion for an owner's initials.

Because new officers bought swords there, a man could get his revolver, too, in one stop. It no doubt worked out well for Wilkinson.

In WW II, Wilkinson was the original maker of the famous Fairbairn-Sykes dagger. Ian Fleming, who owned one, a First Model, mentioned that in a James Bond book, I think, "Live and Let Die." I believe he also had a Randall knife, maybe a Model 2, but he never gave the model or brand.

 

[Dpris]

Parenthetically, on a brief side note- I visited the Wilkinson establishment in London in 1975, to drop off a sword for repair.
The showroom was incredible.
While there, they assembled an FS dagger for me while I waited.
I still have it.
Denis