.455 British Svc Revolver Research Thread

[bracebeemer]

Jim,i'm not sure if you have my Mark ll in your data base. It was shipped to Ottawa on July 8th 1916 .Serial# 70000. Smith &Wesson .455 on left side of barrel. As an aside, it has I.Miller scratched into the bottom of grip. It remains in .455 cal. Bill

 

[Hondo44]

Thank you, I know I don't have yours, I wouldn't forget that serial #.

 

[banjoguy]

2nd Model HE #42432, Caliber IS marked on the left side

British proofs (Broad arrow, ??, E, II) & crossed pennants on the left side. Crossed pennants between one of the chambers. No other unique marks. Reblued, but still 455.

The holster it came in is modified. I can put the name scratched into the holster (American guy in 12th Canadian MG Company) at a very specific location at Paaschendaele on the night of Oct 27, 1917. Not sure if the holster is original to the gun but it's certainly been at home there for a long long time.

 

[Hondo44]

Banjoguy,

Thank you!

 

[Muley Gil]

Welcome to the Forum, banjoguy.

 

[Wiregrassguy]

Welcome to the forums from the Wiregrass!

 

[mrcvs]

Here's one to add:

No 2703, No markings on barrel other than address and British Proofmarks. Shipped 16 Dec 1914 and delivered to Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co, NYC, agents for the British Government.

 

[Texas Star]

SER #--32589

I bought this as a shooter rather than a collector.
I believe it to be a heavily modified .455 HE Model II.
It is now .45 LC--work was expertly done and the action is SLICK.
I have asked for the letter just for information.

View attachment 307983

I think this is the work of a gunsmith named George Matthews, in California. I believe he's now deceased.

 

[Hondo44]

Here's one to add:

No 2703, No markings on barrel other than address and British Proofmarks. Shipped 16 Dec 1914 and delivered to Remington Arms - Union Metallic Cartridge Co, NYC, agents for the British Government.

mrcvs, Thankyou!

 

[S&W ucla]

1st model 455 NO caliber or S&W rollmark. #4871 Proofs as shown in pic. Any clue what "D-6-Q.B." stands for?

 

[Hondo44]

1st model 455 NO caliber or S&W rollmark. #4871 Proofs as shown in pic. Any clue what "D-6-Q.B." stands for?

S&W ucla,

Thank you! Sorry don't know what the D-6-QB is other than some unit designation or Quartermaster inventory #.

Here's two thread links to click on and ask about the marking:

british proof marks - Bing images

http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...y-hand-ejector-birmingham-marks-new-post.html

 

[47magnum]

Hi
I have ser# 40380
left side of barrel SMITH & WESSON .455.
top of barrel has patent marking stamp 2 lines
SMITH & WESSON SPRINGFIELD MASS U.S.A.
PATENTED OCT.8,1901 DEC.17,1901 FEB.6,1906
on the underside of barrel in the flat there is a mark about 3/8" before the serial# I can't make out kind of looks like a B

 

[Hondo44]

Welcome to the forum.

It is a B, used on pre war Hand Ejectors to indicate the original finish is blue. An N or no letter indicates an original nickeled gun.

Thx for the info on your 2nd Model 455.

 

[Hondo44]

See post #1 for the latest databank update.

 

[walter o]

I have a triple lock S/N3349 no cal.marks in .455 .acceptance marks =infield small arms and broad arrow .Also crossed pendants .top of barrel
has patent dates .S/N on butt ,lanyard fitting not through it

 

[DCWilson]

Jim, just another vote of thanks for undertaking this project and keeping it current.

Your running summary makes 73778 sound better than it is. Just to be clear, the revolver is not original in any fundamental sense, though it does still carry an original .455 rollmark on the barrel. Modification details are reported in post 18 on page 1; in quick summary, it has been rechambered to .45 Colt (with a possible intermediate stop at .45 S&W/Schofield) and given Micro adjustable sights. This revolver went under the knife more than once to end up looking the way it does now.

 

[JMtoolman]

Sir, would like to add my triple lock to your numbers.
#15055
.455. on left side of barrel
.455 Eley chambers, not .455 Mark 11
Would like to know when it shipped.
Thanks, J.M.

 

[Hondo44]

JM,

All British contract Revolvers are chambered for the 455 Mk I and Mk II and Webley. S&W refers to the cartridge as Mk II only because that was the intended cartridge for the gun. But the brits wanted the longer chambers for the Mk I in case of Mk II ammo shortages.

The Brits called and stamped the 455 2nd models Mk II.

Your serial # is a bit of an anomaly: does it have British proof stamps?

 

[deadin]

Group 3.A. Serial 56167. Marked Smith & Wesson .455 left side of barrel. Standard markings, crossed flags and Enfield marks on left frame knuckle. There are no commercial marks and oddly(?), no broad arrow property and/or release marks... (-><-) (Other than the little broad arrow that is part of the Enfield acceptance mark.)
Does this indicate the gun went to somewhere other than the War Department?

 

[Hondo44]

Hi Dean,

Thx for that 2nd Model 455 (3A) version.

I've never seen any with "Commercial marks", only factory and military marks; so not sure I know what you mean.

S&W contract British service revolvers can have just import marks, proof marks, export marks, only 2 of those or all three. Just depends on how they made the journey.

An example of an exception is it was purchased by the citizens acquisition committee from a US commercial source and sent over instead of going from S&W to Rem UMC, and then overseas.

If they don't have export marks, they came home thru unofficial channels such as in a GI duffle bag.

 

[JMtoolman]

Jim, my triple lock #15055 does not have any British proofs. It has numbers 6419 on the crane and frame. Thanks, JMtoolman.

 

[Hondo44]

Thx JM!

Ah hah, I didn't think it would. I believe you have a very special 455 TL.

Because that serial # is not in any of the Brit contract WWI service revolver serial # ranges and since it doesn't have any Brit acceptance, proof, or import/export stamps.

I believe it must be a "44 Special Hand Ejector - 1st Model" for these reasons:

1. likely it was special ordered new from S&W with a 455 Mk II chambering,

2. no brit stamps,

3. marked 455 on barrel (the Brit TLs were not marked),

4. and numbered in the 44 serial # range. That would make it one of around 100 and very scarce.

I would definitely get an Historical Letter for that one to confirm!

The only other possibility is that it's a #3B version in my post #178 but as you'll see it's serial # is over 2000 #s higher than any known in that range. And it was sold on the com'l market, not shipped to England.

 

[wiley]

I have a 2nd Model marked 455 on left side of the barrel> The S/N is 8343 as marked on the butt grip and on the frame next to the crane. The crane is also marked with this number in 2 places. The barrel and cylinder are marked 54795, so I'm not sure which is the correct S/N! There is a defaced proof on the knuckle above the grip, and the backstrap is marked RCMP 97

 

[Toyman]

According to "Arms & accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973: The first one hundred years" the RCMP did not buy S&W revolvers in 455 caliber, they bought Colt New Services until WW2.
I would question the RCMP markings on the above mentioned gun.

 

[model3sw]

According to "Arms & accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973: The first one hundred years" the RCMP did not buy S&W revolvers in 455 caliber, they bought Colt New Services until WW2.
I would question the RCMP markings on the above mentioned gun.

There were many with British and / or Canadian proofs in .455. Were those only for the military. I have a New Service in .455 I guess I should mortgage my house to get a letter from Colt on it.

 

[Hondo44]

I have a 2nd Model marked 455 on left side of the barrel> The S/N is 8343 as marked on the butt grip and on the frame next to the crane. The crane is also marked with this number in 2 places. The barrel and cylinder are marked 54795, so I'm not sure which is the correct S/N! There is a defaced proof on the knuckle above the grip, and the backstrap is marked RCMP 97

Thank you. The # on the butt is strange to be matching the assembly #s in the yoke. Could we get a photo of that?

Likely if the butt # was removed and later restamped, the wrong # was used which is not uncommon. The serial # is 54795.

It can be confirmed in 3 other locations:

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

6. Right stock only - on back; penciled om this vintage and stock material.

 

[Hondo44]

In 1873 the North West Mounted Police (NWMP) was created. The .450 Adams revolver was the original sidearm, ex- British Army guns, shipped over "packed in a valise" (a reference to why so many were found damaged upon arrival from England and not useable. Period photos show Adams in a cross-draw leather belt holster. I'm not aware that the Colt SAA was ever used by the NWMP.)

1904 'Royal' was bestowed upon the NWMP and they became the RNWMP. The Colt New Service was 1st ordered, and they were chambered in .455 Eley & re-ordered 3 more times thru 1914.

1918 they switched to the .45 Colt chambered NS. This is the period that 724 S&W "455 Mk II Hand Ejector - 2nd Models" chambered in 45 Colt were ordered by the RNWMP. No serial # list known, Pg 203 H of S&W. But a # range has been reported*.

1920 RNWMP merged w/the Dominion Police Force to become a Canadian wide force, the Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP).

1920 thru 1942 45 Colt NS revolvers were re-ordered exclusively except for 1932 when the last batch of 455 Eleys (MK II) was ordered. To solve the issue of two different cartridges, all 45 Colt chambered guns were moved to eastern Canada and all 455 Eleys to west of Thunder Bay in Northwest Ontario.

1954 all .45 caliber revolvers were retired and the S&W .38 Spl Military and Police (Pre mod 10) was adopted (thought to be 5 ½" barrels).

1964 retired .45 caliber revolvers were first offered to Force members for $12 ea. Then the remainder were sold to the general public.

Revolvers were usually stamped with variations of the RCMP letters. Of the 3,195 Colt NS revolvers, only 2800 were actually stamped with an issue number. Mostly MP marked Colt New Service revolvers have been observed.

*Most of the 724 are in the 70K range, though there are some earlier... in the 40K range... that didn't go to Canada. #74301 is one that did, a Canadian-shipped .455 HE 2nd Mod. in .45 Colt.
Post #13 has an interesting story of one here:
http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...1397-rcmp-455-second-model.html#post137889347


Forum member Jim Fisher has one in the 40K range that was found a few years back; there are 14 others mfg. (if my recall is correct) at the same time.
_______________

 

[Hondo44]

According to "Arms & accoutrements of the Mounted Police, 1873-1973: The first one hundred years" the RCMP did not buy S&W revolvers in 455 caliber, they bought Colt New Services until WW2.
I would question the RCMP markings on the above mentioned gun.

I do too! In particular because the known marking is just MP with an issue #.

The RCMP did not buy 455s. But The Canadian military bought 14,500 .455 2nd Models [H of S&W, pg. 203].

Canadian military shipments of 14,500:

-1500 Shipped after Aug. 1915
-850 Shipped thru December 24th, 1915
-150 Shipped thru March 31st, 1916
-6,000 Shipped thru July 22nd, 1916
-6000 Shipped February 10, 1917
At least 1 shipped July 29th, 1916, see post #10: http://smith-wessonforum.com/s-w-ha...5-455-hand-ejector-45-colt.html#post139027072

 

[wiley]

Thank you. The # on the butt is strange to be matching the assembly #s in the yoke. Could we get a photo of that?

Likely if the butt # was removed and later restamped, the wrong # was used which is not uncommon. The serial # is 54795.

It can be confirmed in 3 other locations:

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

6. Right stock only - on back; penciled om this vintage and stock material.

Not best pics, and I couldn't figure a way to shoot rear face of crane, which has the same #8345. Same with rear face of extractor, it is #54795.
I believe the #8345 number on the frame is the s/n because of location. Regards,
Wiley

 

[wiley]

Thank you. The # on the butt is strange to be matching the assembly #s in the yoke. Could we get a photo of that?

Likely if the butt # was removed and later restamped, the wrong # was used which is not uncommon. The serial # is 54795.

It can be confirmed in 3 other locations:

3. Yoke - on rear face only visible thru a chamber with a flashlight

4. Extractor star - backside

6. Right stock only - on back; penciled om this vintage and stock material.

Not best pics, and I couldn't figure a way to shoot rear face of crane, which has the same #8345. Same with rear face of extractor, it is #54795.
I believe the #8345 number on the frame is the s/n because of location. Regards,
Wiley