.45ACP Roll Crimp?

[trulyapostolic]

After a lot of searching on several forums, I still don't have an answer to this question, so I thought I'd ask here.

I shoot 200 grain .45ACP RNFP in my model 625 because the rounded bullet nose decreases my reload times. Chambers on the gun are highly chamfered (think small funnels). I have about 3000 200 grain SWC bullets that I used to use in my 1911s. They do not work well in the 625 because the edges hang up on the chamber mouths. I've done some experimentation with heavy taper crimp at the sharp forward edge of the bullet, and it improves things somewhat - it only takes a bit of wriggling to get the moon-clipped rounds to drop in.

Thus my question - if I apply a heavy roll crimp over the front edge of the bullet, will that round things up enough to prevent the cartridges from hanging up on the chamber entrances? I'm not concerned with the loss of headspace capability at the front of the cartridge - these will be revolver-only. RCBS makes a .45ACP roll crimp die that's fairly inexpensive, so I will probably get one and try it, unless I get some information from you folks that it won't work.

I appreciate any comments.

Buck

I didn't notice anyone questioning this aspect. You're saying that the bullet is contacting the leade going into the cylinder throat and won't allow the round to fully chamber?

 

[jcelect]

I still don’t get ACP in a revolver, especially if one reloads…

The answer is SPEED OF RELOADING! A full moon clip makes it much faster to get the rounds into the chamber than any speed loader made today! Just ask Jerry! A second benefit of the full moon clip is it applies even pressure from the ejector to all six rounds at the same time and the ejector can't jump the rim of a stuck cartridge case.
jcelect

 

[cmj8591]

The answer is SPEED OF RELOADING! A full moon clip makes it much faster to get the rounds into the chamber than any speed loader made today! Just ask Jerry! A second benefit of the full moon clip is it applies even pressure from the ejector to all six rounds at the same time and the ejector can't jump the rim of a stuck cartridge case.
jcelect

The adoption of 45acp revolvers and half moon clips didn't have anything to do with speed of reloading. As the US was about to get into WW1 in 1917, they had no where near enough 1911's. Most of the arms manufacturers were busy making guns for other countries who had been fighting since 1914. Rifle production was more of a priority so not a lot of service pistols had been built up to 1917. As the US appraised their manufacturing capacity, they found that there was no way they would be able to tool up to produce the necessary 1911's for their entry into the war. The solution was to look at altering guns that were already in production. Colt had the New Service large frame revolvers and Smith had what would one day become the N frame revolver. It was simple enough to change their existing tooling to cut the proper barrels and chambers. The problem was that the Army was buying 45acp ammo and wanted their handguns chambered to fire it. Although it was simple enough to cut chambers and barrels, ejecting a rimless round from a swing open revolver was problematic. Enter Joseph Wesson, Daniel's son. He came up with and patented the half moon clip. Each clip holds 3 rounds and engages with the extractor star, which allows the rounds to be removed from the chamber using the ejector rod. The concept of the half moon clip, and later the 1/3 moon and full moon clips came about because of extraction, not loading. The Army wanted the gun to be usable without the clips in a emergency. Imagine being in a WW1 trench with a pocket full of loose 45's and no clips. To accommodate that, a shoulder is machined into the chambers so that a round without a clip will headspace high enough to be fired. Colt had a lot of New Service, 45 Colt cylinders on hand so to get a jump on production, they started with those. The early Colt's will not fire an individual 45 because they lack the ledge inside the chambers. Shortly after the war ended, the government declared all of the 1917 revolvers surplus. They were committed to the 1911 and had no interest in revolvers. Hundreds of thousands were sold off to the public. In 1925, the Peter's ammo company came up with the 45 Auto Rim so that the guns would function better without the clips. I do not believe that any company specifically chambered a revolver in 45AR. The full moon clip would come along later and I believe in response to the use of 45ACP revolvers in the action games that started to become popular in the 60's and 70's. So the main purpose of the clip was to provide a way to eject rounds. Although Smith's have the ledge inside the chambers to allow single loading and firing, when you drop in a clip full of ammo the clip is what keeps the base of the round against the recoil shield and sets the head space and the mouth of the case is a couple of thousands off the ridge so it has no role. That is why you can heavily roll crimp 45's that will be used in this manner.

 

[jeeps]

I use a roll crimp on my 45 auto rim brass with a 255 swc. in Sw and Colt 1917.

 

[StrawHat]

The adoption of 45acp revolvers and half moon clips didn't have anything to do with speed of reloading. As the US was about to get into WW1 in 1917, they had no where near enough 1911's. Most of the arms manufacturers were busy making guns for other countries who had been fighting since 1914. Rifle production was more of a priority so not a lot of service pistols had been built up to 1917. As the US appraised their manufacturing capacity, they found that there was no way they would be able to tool up to produce the necessary 1911's for their entry into the war. The solution was to look at altering guns that were already in production. Colt had the New Service large frame revolvers and Smith had what would one day become the N frame revolver. It was simple enough to change their existing tooling to cut the proper barrels and chambers. The problem was that the Army was buying 45acp ammo and wanted their handguns chambered to fire it. Although it was simple enough to cut chambers and barrels, ejecting a rimless round from a swing open revolver was problematic. Enter Joseph Wesson, Daniel's son. He came up with and patented the half moon clip. Each clip holds 3 rounds and engages with the extractor star, which allows the rounds to be removed from the chamber using the ejector rod. The concept of the half moon clip, and later the 1/3 moon and full moon clips came about because of extraction, not loading. The Army wanted the gun to be usable without the clips in a emergency. Imagine being in a WW1 trench with a pocket full of loose 45's and no clips. To accommodate that, a shoulder is machined into the chambers so that a round without a clip will headspace high enough to be fired. Colt had a lot of New Service, 45 Colt cylinders on hand so to get a jump on production, they started with those. The early Colt's will not fire an individual 45 because they lack the ledge inside the chambers. Shortly after the war ended, the government declared all of the 1917 revolvers surplus. They were committed to the 1911 and had no interest in revolvers. Hundreds of thousands were sold off to the public. In 1925, the Peter's ammo company came up with the 45 Auto Rim so that the guns would function better without the clips. I do not believe that any company specifically chambered a revolver in 45AR. The full moon clip would come along later and I believe in response to the use of 45ACP revolvers in the action games that started to become popular in the 60's and 70's. So the main purpose of the clip was to provide a way to eject rounds. Although Smith's have the ledge inside the chambers to allow single loading and firing, when you drop in a clip full of ammo the clip is what keeps the base of the round against the recoil shield and sets the head space and the mouth of the case is a couple of thousands off the ridge so it has no role. That is why you can heavily roll crimp 45's that will be used in this manner.

Joseph Wesson and his team also came up with the original full moon clip.

The Army wisely selected the simpler, easier to manufacture, load and ship 1/2 moon clip.

As for making a revolver specifically for the 45 Auto Rim, I do not believe that is possible as the AR cartridge duplicates the ACP round with the clip attached.

Kevin

 

[BC38]

That's all true, but you forgot the comma after the words "understand it." When combining two independent clauses with a conjunction, you're supposed to also use a comma. It just makes reading your post easier if you don't have run on sentences.

Just sayin...

SERIOUSLY?!? That is the most significant contribution you can make to this conversation? A correction of someone else's PUNCTUATION?!?!

What are you, a high school English teacher?!?

Forgive me for saying this, but if that is all you have to offer, then GET A LIFE. Maybe you should sit back and listen to the conversation between the adults in the room.

You might just learn something if you stop trying to convince everyone that you are the smartest person in the room (hint: You AREN'T, and frankly, neither am I).

Anyway, JMO, and YMMV...

 

[murphydog]

It's an interesting discussion that will stay open...

But the thread just celebrated its 13th birthday and the OP has been gone for 5 1/2 years. RIP Haggis.

 

[TheTinMan]

It's an interesting discussion that will stay open...

But the thread just celebrated its 13th birthday and the OP has been gone for 5 1/2 years. RIP Haggis.

I for one am embarrassed. I didn’t even look at who the OP was - and he was very helpful to me on several occasions.

 

[Well Armed]

SERIOUSLY?!? That is the most significant contribution you can make to this conversation? A correction of someone else's PUNCTUATION?!?!

What are you, a high school English teacher?!?

Forgive me for saying this, but if that is all you have to offer, then GET A LIFE. Maybe you should sit back and listen to the conversation between the adults in the room.

You might just learn something if you stop trying to convince everyone that you are the smartest person in the room (hint: You AREN'T, and frankly, neither am I).

Anyway, JMO, and YMMV...

You said it better than I could have. Oh, the irony of it all. I agree 100% with everything you just said about yourself in the above quote. There's nothing further for us to discuss. You made my point for me. Happy Holidays.

 

[BC38]

LOL! Touche'

My apologies for having hurt your feelings.

 

[cmj8591]

It's an interesting discussion that will stay open...

But the thread just celebrated its 13th birthday and the OP has been gone for 5 1/2 years. RIP Haggis.

Everything old is new again. There's always a lot of lore around the clip and it never really seems to run out of gas. Maybe some new shooter who thinks that this is a new, cool idea that originated with their 9mm J frame will take the time to read some of these posts. Where else on the inter web can you learn about Joseph Wesson and proper punctuation in the same thread?

 

[cmj8591]

Joseph Wesson and his team also came up with the original full moon clip.

The Army wisely selected the simpler, easier to manufacture, load and ship 1/2 moon clip.

As for making a revolver specifically for the 45 Auto Rim, I do not believe that is possible as the AR cartridge duplicates the ACP round with the clip attached.

Kevin

Great post. I'm not sure that I ever saw that patent drawing. Looking at the design it's not hard to think that they may have been a little too fragile for the Army.

 

[StrawHat]

Great post. I'm not sure that I ever saw that patent drawing. Looking at the design it's not hard to think that they may have been a little too fragile for the Army.

I have looked, without success, for the patent on the 1/2 moon clip.

Kevin

 

[BLUEDOT37]

Roll crimp in 45ACP/AR

Heck you could roll crimp the LSWCs the same way. I’ve certainly done that for revolvers, .38 Special and .45 ACP.

Crimping over the driving band has been done for years in revolvers so I don't see why it wouldn't work in the 45ACP cases with the 200gr L-SWC bullets that the Op was wanting to use up.

A moderately rounded roll crimp over the shoulder should allow the rounds to slip in the chamber mouths easy enough if they're held tightly in the moonclips.
.

FWIW the Redding Profile Crimp Die more or less combines a taper crimp with a very controllable roll crimp. Might be worth a try.

I use the Redding Profile Crimp die for my 45 Auto Rim loads when I load Sierra's 240gr JHC in them.

That's the heaviest bullet I prefer to use in these short cases.

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When I want to use a heavier bullet in my 325TR is swap over to my stainless steel 45WSM cylinder.
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[BC38]

The only concern I'd have with roll crimping over the shoulder of the SWC bullet would be that you'd be seating them a lot deeper, and that would significantly reduce the interior volume in the case. That's going to raise the pressure. Not as much as with a 9mm, but still enough to be significant. I'd definitely reduce the powder charge to the bare minimum and shoot a few over a chrony to see if the velocity numbers line up with the predicted velocity that the book predicts for the load.

 

[rockquarry]

The only concern I'd have with roll crimping over the shoulder of the bullet would be that you'd be seating them a lot deeper, and that would significantly reduce the interior volume in the case. That's going to raise the pressure. Not as much as with a 9mm, but still enough to be significant. I'd definitely reduce the powder charge to the bare minimum and shoot a few over a chrony to see if the velocity numbers line up with the predicted velocity that the book predicts for the load.

I wouldn't do that either without adequate experimentation. Most of the time, however, if I used a roll crimp for .45 loads, I would use a bullet design with a crimp groove. Plenty of them out there, cast or jacketed.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

People gotta know the basics before starting

The only concern I'd have with roll crimping over the shoulder of the bullet would be that you'd be seating them a lot deeper, and that would significantly reduce the interior volume in the case.

Agreed.

Like so many other variables we can introduce into our handloads anybody who's knowledgeable in the craft should know changing the COAL" from it's recipe's length needs to make corresponding adjustments.

.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

I wouldn't do that either without adequate experimentation. Most of the time, however, if I used a roll crimp for .45 loads, I would use a bullet design with a crimp groove. Plenty of them out there, cast or jacketed.

Yes, lots of options but the Op wanted to use his surplus 200gr L-SWCs, not buy new bullets instead.

.

 

[BLUEDOT37]

As for making a revolver specifically for the 45 Auto Rim, I do not believe that is possible as the AR cartridge duplicates the ACP round with the clip attached.

Yes, the 45AR, with its fat rims, are made to fit the M1917/25/625 45ACP models.

Making a revolver for the 45AR would be a M1917/25/625.

Now taking Starline's purpose made 45 Cowboy Special Brass, with its .45 Colt rim and .45 Auto length, would require some tweaks from a 45ACP architecture.

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[rockquarry]

Yes, lots of options but the Op wanted to use his surplus 200gr L-SWCs, not buy new bullets instead.

.

I thought I covered that when I mentioned I wouldn't do what he wanted to do without adequate experimentation.